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Author Topic:   You Guys Need to Communicate! (thoughts from an ex evangelical Christian)
Ophir
Junior Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 10-19-2006


Message 1 of 200 (385212)
02-14-2007 4:26 PM


I was born into the evangelical tradition. No need for specifics--just meat and potatoes evangelicalism.
In my experience living in this strange world, I can confidently say that evangelicals believe that death was introduced into the world via the Fall.
It simply wasn't up for debate. Almost every sermon on sin began with a reference to the impetus for decay in the universe: Genesis 3--the Adamic Fall.
I attended several churches, all of which subscribed to this "orthodox" doctrine. I listened to Christian radio, read Christian books, watched Christian television programming, and everywhere I turned, the Adam-Introduced-Death-Through-Sin gambit was being repeated. It was biblical. Nothing else made sense or was in harmony with scripture, I was told.
Now cognitive dissonance has won out and I have abandoned the fundies. I have gone on Christian forums to express my dismay at the brainwashing I endured, and even exposed the deceptive tactics of many a YEC.
Little did I know I'm still not justified in abandoning the Bible as an inspired text. No, I have been told by seeming reasonable Christians that I need not have been brainwashed. The Bible, they tell me, says nothing about sin introducing death into the world. Things died pre-Fall because the Bible doesn't say that things DIDN'T die.
I can only say one thing: you guys need to get your stories straight!
It's like some grand Keystone Kops routine.
Seeing YECs fight with each other on who has the most biblical YEC stance reminded me of just how ridiculous the evangelism routine is. It's founded on premises that millions of (presumably sincere) Christians can't even agree on between themselves.
And now I'm being proselytized to believe in a more liberal Christianity, one vastly gentler and more comfortable than the stuffy YECism that I was chained to before, but no more believable.
In a system where religion is a conconction of men, such things are to be expected. That's what gives me comfort. At least it's no mystery why men argue endlessly about trivial religious matters. It's very similar to those who bicker about constitutional authority.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added the "(thoughts from an ex evangelical Christian)" part to the topic title.

Replies to this message:
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AdminNem
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 200 (385222)
02-14-2007 5:47 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 3 of 200 (385227)
02-14-2007 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ophir
02-14-2007 4:26 PM


Several things.
One thing I noticed coming from a 'fundamentalist background' , many people who come from the very conservative upbringing tend to be indoctrinated in the 'black/white' , yes/no, binary thinking. Something is either true or it is false, no shades of grey between. In the case
of many 'ex-fundamentalist' who have become atheists, that seems to be a factor (not that it is wrong, it is just that the shades of grey are overlooked).
There are a lot of shades of grey out there. As a matter of fact, much of the religious method of learning/teaching in Judaism is arguing about the shades of gray (and all the colors of the rainbow and then some) about the meanings of various scripture.
Of course, just because there are shades of gray, it doesn't mean either white or black is the WRONG choice.. it is just so many choices are being overlooked for consideration.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 200 (385238)
02-14-2007 6:46 PM


Hi Ophir. A hearty welcome to EvC. I hope you enjoy the site. It sounds like you're a sensible thinker. Too bad you aren't into the prophecies so as to stabilize your faith in the scriptures.
That aside, nobody knows exactly how the lives of Adam and Eve would have played out had they not sinned. It's sort of like would Jesus who had never sinned have died had nobody killed him.
Note the wording in Genesis 2:17: "ASV: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Note the phrase, "in the day." Of course the text clearly shows that Adam lived over 900 years before physical death. What it appears to be speaking of is a spiritual death or separation from God where the Holy Spirit of God moves out of Adam and Eve, leaving them spiritually dead. Thus Jesus in the NT spoke to Nicodemus who asked how to get into his kingdom, told him that he needed a new spiritual birth via the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, i.e 'born again' or literal Greek, 'born from above.'
It was after this sin of Adam that the sacrifical death of an innocent animal had to be offered for the covering of sin until the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus who is referred to as the 2nd Adam being a life giving spirit man whereas the 1st Adam (Genesis) was a living soul man. With the life giving Adam, Jesus, the dispensation of Levitical Temple worship and sacrifice ended and men/women could then become spiritually reclaimed back into spiritual fellowship with the Father, Jehovah via the baptism of the Holy Spirit, i.e. the new birth, i.e being born again from above.
1 Corinthians 15:45 (American Standard Version)
American Standard Version (ASV)
Copyright © 1901 Public Domain
I Corinthians 15:45 "So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
And of course, the same context clarifies that Jesus is a spiritual lifegiving 'man.'
It appears that what you needed was not to dump the fundie fundamentals of scripture, but to get deeper into them so you would become apprised as to how it works. Don't expect to ever know all the details or even to understand it fully. We just are not given those details and after it's OK for God to be God all knowing creator and men to be men, limited in knowledge.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Add and i to stabilize. Missed that in preview

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 200 (385242)
02-14-2007 6:59 PM


Perhaps People Population Problem Perceived
Perhaps some may see the problem of no death in that eventually humans would overpopulate the planet. We know that Enoch in early creation never died but was taken up alive to God's place wherever that was so this may be a clue that righteous sinless people would have been at some mature period removed by God alive, and transformed into spirit beings capable of celestial existence, had Adam remained sinless, not having taken of the forbidden tree.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Eliminate word, change title.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 200 (385244)
02-14-2007 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ophir
02-14-2007 4:26 PM


Throw God away.
Now cognitive dissonance has won out and I have abandoned the fundies.
Good. There is no God to be found in any Fundie sects.
And now I'm being proselytized to believe in a more liberal Christianity, one vastly gentler and more comfortable than the stuffy YECism that I was chained to before, but no more believable.
If it is not believable, then throw it away too.
In a system where religion is a conconction of men, such things are to be expected. That's what gives me comfort. At least it's no mystery why men argue endlessly about trivial religious matters. It's very similar to those who bicker about constitutional authority.
Yes. Religions, all religions are just a creation of Man. They can never be anything else.
Don't worry. You have nothing to fear and a wonderful life ahead of you. Find what you can believe. It will serve you better than any God you do not believe in.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Ophir, posted 02-14-2007 4:26 PM Ophir has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 200 (385247)
02-14-2007 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
02-14-2007 7:01 PM


Re: Throw God away.
Ophir: "Now cognitive dissonance has won out and I have abandoned the fundies."
Jar: "Good. There is no God to be found in any Fundie sects."
Two Non-Fundies who reject the written fundamentals of God's scripture.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 8 of 200 (385253)
02-14-2007 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ophir
02-14-2007 4:26 PM


Sam Harris is an atheist and author of The End of Faith, a New York Times bestseller a year or so ago. He believes that fundamentalist beliefs are far more consistent and intellectually honest than those of religious moderates. The fundamentalists have read and understood the books, and they know and believe exactly what they say. Moderates ignore broad portions of the Bible while accepting others without any particularly compelling reasons for distinguishing between them, other than that they're anachronistic or no longer relevant, or even that it just seems right for them. If religion is revealed truth, then fundamentalists have it all over the moderates.
I'm not an atheist, but from the standpoint of intellectual integrity I'd have to say that the atheists have it over everybody, including the agnostics.
One thing I believe: with so many different religions claiming to have the one revealed truth, they're probably all wrong.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 10 by anastasia, posted 02-14-2007 8:12 PM Percy has replied
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 9 of 200 (385260)
02-14-2007 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
02-14-2007 7:37 PM


apologies, double-posted while editing
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 10 of 200 (385262)
02-14-2007 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
02-14-2007 7:37 PM


Percy writes:
Sam Harris is an atheist and author of The End of Faith, a New York Times bestseller a year or so ago. He believes that fundamentalist beliefs are far more consistent and intellectually honest than those of religious moderates. The fundamentalists have read and understood the books, and they know and believe exactly what they say. Moderates ignore broad portions of the Bible while accepting others without any particularly compelling reasons for distinguishing between them, other than that they're anachronistic or no longer relevant, or even that it just seems right for them. If religion is revealed truth, then fundamentalists have it all over the moderates.
I disagree, Percy. A Fundementalist may indeed be an honest person, but taking the Bible literally in all matters is not superior to understanding the context in which it was written, or to using a God-given dose of reason to decipher the MANY meanings of scripture. I have not found that moderates on this forum abandon any part of scripture, but have ascribed a different meaning to passages which honestly no one has the 'true' answer to. We are all working with the same revealed truth, but it always, always comes down to an interpretation.
To say someone 'knows and believes exactly what scripture says' is false IMO, as we can ALL know exactly what scripture says, but as you may notice, we only believe what we think it means or what our 'elders' have decided it means.
The main problem I see in the Fundementalism movement is, that they have completely abandoned any tradition to forge their own way using only the Bible as reference. Thus, in a sense they are cut off from the rich background of tradition which gives meaning to many passages. And, most importantly, any true believer in revealed truth will know that it is a Living Truth, one which does not grow stale, but changes, grows, evolves and has meaning for all time. It is not a truth set apart and reserved for one sect or another. The instant a passage becomes The Only Holy Permanant Answer, the Bible has become a DEAD book. That is not to say things may be translated and used willy-nilly, but that there are many, many legitimate interpretations. The best way to interpret is to use ALL of the available information in order to gain more insight, and this includes science, tradition, history, archaeology, and common sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 02-14-2007 7:37 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-15-2007 1:24 PM anastasia has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 11 of 200 (385265)
02-14-2007 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ophir
02-14-2007 4:26 PM


Hi Ophir,
As everyone who's replied so far seems to be a theist of some sort, I just thought I'd say that there are quite a few atheists and agnostics around here! Congratulations on escaping from the mental chains of your childhood indoctrination, and welcome to the world of free thought as well as to the site!

This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 12 of 200 (385267)
02-14-2007 8:30 PM


WARNING - IN TEN MINUTES THIS TOPIC IS GOING TO BE MOVED
This is not a "Coffee House" type topic. I will be moving it soon.
I give this warning in hopes that the move does not cause any messages in preparation to be lost.
Adminnemooseus

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 13 of 200 (385268)
02-14-2007 8:45 PM


Thread moved here from the Coffee House forum.

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 14 of 200 (385285)
02-14-2007 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ophir
02-14-2007 4:26 PM


a true story
Thanks for a strong and candid OP, Ophir. Welcome to EvC.
I am not a Christian. But I recognize a true story when I read one.
To have your innocence is not to know what you have. Innocence is only understood by those who have tasted more.
We each have our time in the paradise garden. The world smiles, simple and new.
We each become aware of mysteries. More exists than appearances had led us to believe. The universe has secrets.
We choose to know.
We take the fruit into our hands and eat, and banish ourselves from the one perfect place.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 15 of 200 (385287)
02-14-2007 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Archer Opteryx
02-14-2007 10:26 PM


Re: a true story
Archer Opterix writes:
We take the fruit into our hands and eat, and banish ourselves from the one perfect place.
Too true, at the moment we leave behind child-like innocence, we leave behind that perfect place. With the dawn of the age of reason, everything is subject to our own incomplete knowledge of 'perfect'.
Not to put meaning where you did not intend, of course, but to put my own slant to it.

This message is a reply to:
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