Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Valentine's Day Challenge
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 55 (385179)
02-14-2007 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taz
02-14-2007 1:15 PM


Attitudinal responses
Seeing your attitude toward gay people, I can see how most of them prefer not to show themselves to you, and that is why you still think there just aren't many around.
I don't have an attitude about gay people, I have an attitude about homosexuality. I recognize that there are multiple layers of people. I don't focus on any specific aspect of a persons life. Do you think that I can't speak to a homosexual just because they're gay? That would be silly. I don't have to like the sin but I can still like the person. Know what I mean? You have very opposite views about homosexuality than I do, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't like you just because of those beliefs. Please don't make me out to be Fred Phelps.
Take my word for it, just like white protestant males like you, gay people people are everywhere and they are here to stay.
That was profound.
I have taken this challenge a long time ago. For a week, I tried to avoid telling people the gender of my significant other (aka my wife). I always referred to her as "the person" or "my better half". The interesting thing that I noticed was people who would otherwise don't care much for gays were the ones that kept trying to probe me to try to make me spell out the gender of my significant other.
It sounds like a conspiracy.
I have a co-worker who's been working there for 5 years now. I only recently found out she's been married (not legally of course) to the same woman for 10 years now.
Well, that's on her because she doesn't need to hide it. You think I hide my beliefs to the world? My beliefs that homosexuality is unnatural is far less popular now than the belief that gay is okay. I don't see the fear in it. I could understand it twenty or thirty years ago, but not now. Unless she's at a neo-Nazi rally or something. Then I could understand it as being faux pax.
The sociological break through is do you have any idea how hard it is to try to hide the gender of your significant other, especially when the very language we use everyday to communicate with other people is designed to make it hard for us to hide people's gender?
Why does she have to hide it? If people treat her like a pariah after she comes out, then bye, who needs them anyway? She might be surpised how many people accept her anyway.
Why do I have the priviledge of using "my wife" or "her" or "she" just because I'm part of a majority while the people who belong to the minority in this respect have to use something as lame as "my significant other" just to make people like you feel happy?
Because heterosexuality is normal and homosexuality is abnormal. And before you freak out, what I mean is that heterosexuality is the norm and homosexuality isn't. Are you going to fault nature for that? Do you feel bad because you were born straight?

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 02-14-2007 1:15 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-14-2007 2:05 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 18 by Heathen, posted 02-14-2007 2:08 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 22 by nator, posted 02-14-2007 3:08 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 36 by Jaderis, posted 02-15-2007 4:52 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 55 (385183)
02-14-2007 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
02-14-2007 1:51 PM


Re: Attitudinal responses
Well, that's on her because she doesn't need to hide it. You think I hide my beliefs to the world? My beliefs that homosexuality is unnatural is far less popular now than the belief that gay is okay. I don't see the fear in it. I could understand it twenty or thirty years ago, but not now. Unless she's at a neo-Nazi rally or something. Then I could understand it as being faux pax.
That's it exactly, NJ... a faux pas. The worry one has over coming out is exactly the same as the worry that somone will see you eat salad with the wrong fork.
Good gravy. How do you live with such a capacity for empathy?
The woman who started this thread recently outlined instances of violence against her and others for being gay, right here in this day and age. Perhaps you should read it.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-14-2007 1:51 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-14-2007 5:33 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 18 of 55 (385184)
02-14-2007 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
02-14-2007 1:51 PM


Re: Attitudinal responses
NJ in message 10 writes:
If she was just born homosexual and I was just born heterosexual, and its noboady's fault,
NJ in message 16 writes:
My beliefs that homosexuality is unnatural is far less popular now
NJ in message 16 writes:
Because heterosexuality is normal and homosexuality is abnormal...Are you going to fault nature for that?
So, It's "nobody's fault" but at the same Time it's "Unnatural" and "abnormal"
How do you reconcile these views?
It's not the persons fault, but you question whether it's a natural occurance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-14-2007 1:51 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 55 (385187)
02-14-2007 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
02-14-2007 1:47 PM


So, am I a lesbian?
I'm a thespian too.... Ohhhhh, lesbian.
Go ahead, read all my posts and see what hints I've given about my sexuality. I'll wait.
I've never thought about your sexuality Ringo.
Have you been assuming all along that I was a straight male?
Your sexual preference has never come across my mind. I have assumed you were a male. Perhaps a subliminal thing. Your name is Ringo and your former avatar was male.
What would change if you found out I was a lesbian? Would you think less of me?
No Ringo, I don't think I could think any less of you. I'm teasing. Seriously, I wouldn't care. Jaderis is a lesbian (I think) and I think she's a sharp cookie. I enjoy having here on the forum and I enjoy having you here on the forum as well.
Knowing you, though, methinks you're playing the devil's advocate. I call bluff. Lay down the cards.
And this is only the Internet. What about real life
Whoa! Wait a minute.... This isn't real life? Dammit! Percy lied to me!
What would you think of my wife if she was the same sex as me?
I wouldn't think anything of it. Just like I don't think anything about Jaderis' wife or girlfriend or lover or whatever.
I know this all may be very hard for you guys to believe because I'm so outspoken. But I'm not nearly the raging a-hole you think I am. I don't think I'm unreasonable. I view homosexuality very practically. I view it like all other things that I think affect people negatively. You don't want to hear that I have homosexual friends because you might think I'm just using that as the token gay-friend. But its not true. There is not one thing different about the homosexual than me. Do I believe that homosexuality is a sin? Yeah, I do. And I don't beat around the bush with that. But I don't brow beat and I don't condemn people because of that because I have my own sin too. I think its easier for you all to think that I hate you, but I don't. Not one of you. Some of you really tick me off, but I know I tick you guys off too. I try to keep it in perspective.
You know, Andrew Sullivan is a gay conservative, Christian. He recognizes that somebody like myself may be uncompromising on the issue of homosexuality, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to ostracize him for that. If I knew him and he asked my beliefs on that. I would tell him straight to his face how I feel about it. But that doesn't mean that I couldn't have a laugh with the man and talk about all sorts of other things.
Lastly, it is very important to clear up any misconceptions and to get over certain stigmas regarding homosexuals. The maltreatment of homosexuals is simply unacceptable from a Christian standpoint. Many Christians have singled out homosexuality with ferocity and has either intentionally or inadvertently deemed it as a worse sin than others have. When dealing with God’s Law, this just isn’t so.
Homosexuality is no worse, or better, than any sexual immorality. ALL sin is alike to God. While never placating or condoning homosexual behavior, it is important not to harbor a spirit of condemnation. I believe that wholeheartedly. I think the second worst thing you could do is to completely placate or patronize them, which I think, many, many EvC members do. They don't need that. They need us to treat them the way you'd treat any one else. And if that's the purpose of this women's inquiry, then I get it.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 02-14-2007 1:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 02-14-2007 2:42 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 55 (385189)
02-14-2007 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaderis
02-14-2007 3:34 AM


stupid valentines
I hate v-day, no one loves me... life is brutal... I hate love

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jaderis, posted 02-14-2007 3:34 AM Jaderis has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 21 of 55 (385191)
02-14-2007 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hyroglyphx
02-14-2007 2:19 PM


nemesis_juggernaut writes:
Knowing you, though, methinks you're playing the devil's advocate.
"Devil's advocate" would mean I was defending a position that I don't agree with. That is definitely not what I am doing.
I'm trying to make a point about anonymity and ambiguity. On the Internet, it can be dangerous to give out specific information about yourself. Unfortunately, that can be true in real life too, for homosexuals. Even an everyday phrase like "my wife" can get you in trouble.
The challenge, as I understand it, is to spend a day in somebody else's shoes. Try to go through a whole day without mentioning your partner's gender. Try to understand what it's like to live every day like that.
Homosexuality is no worse, or better, than any sexual immorality.
This is not the place for it, but we might have to have a thread on what "sexual immorality" is - since you evidently don't know.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-14-2007 2:19 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-14-2007 5:20 PM ringo has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 22 of 55 (385195)
02-14-2007 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
02-14-2007 1:51 PM


Re: Attitudinal responses
quote:
I don't have an attitude about gay people, I have an attitude about homosexuality.
Yet more evidence that all conservative christians are obsessed with sex, especially any sort of sex that other people are having that might not be exactly the same as the sex they themselves are having.
quote:
Why does she have to hide it?
Why?
Because it is perfectly legal in over half of US states to fire someone for being gay, that's why.
quote:
And before you freak out, what I mean is that heterosexuality is the norm and homosexuality isn't. Are you going to fault nature for that?
Does this work with skin color, too?
Added a day later by Edit: What about left-handedness? Is being left-handed "abnormal"? Green eyes?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-14-2007 1:51 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Chiroptera, posted 02-14-2007 3:12 PM nator has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 55 (385196)
02-14-2007 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by nator
02-14-2007 3:08 PM


I think you're onto something here....
quote:
...especially any sort of sex that other people are having that might not be exactly the same as the sex they themselves are having.
Jealousy over all the fun they are missing out on?
Edited by Chiroptera, : Oops. Wrong close tag.

This world can take my money and time/ But it sure can't take my soul. -- Joe Ely

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by nator, posted 02-14-2007 3:08 PM nator has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 55 (385218)
02-14-2007 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
02-14-2007 2:42 PM


"Devil's advocate" would mean I was defending a position that I don't agree with. That is definitely not what I am doing.
So are you a lesbian or not? (keeping in mind that in order to be a lesbian, you would have to be a female).
I'm trying to make a point about anonymity and ambiguity. On the Internet, it can be dangerous to give out specific information about yourself.
Yeah, like divulging your pin number is ill-advised. I don't see how telling us if you were gay or straight, male or female would qualify.
Unfortunately, that can be true in real life too, for homosexuals. Even an everyday phrase like "my wife" can get you in trouble.
With who?
The challenge, as I understand it, is to spend a day in somebody else's shoes. Try to go through a whole day without mentioning your partner's gender. Try to understand what it's like to live every day like that.
I'd rather know what its like to be in the shoes of a crippled person, which to me, seems far more grievous than someone who doesn't feel comfortable with divulging their sexual identity.
quote:
Homosexuality is no worse, or better, than any sexual immorality.
This is not the place for it, but we might have to have a thread on what "sexual immorality" is - since you evidently don't know.
Write it up.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 02-14-2007 2:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 02-14-2007 6:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 55 (385219)
02-14-2007 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dan Carroll
02-14-2007 2:05 PM


Re: Attitudinal responses
That's it exactly, NJ... a faux pas. The worry one has over coming out is exactly the same as the worry that somone will see you eat salad with the wrong fork.
Nowadays, precisely.
Good gravy. How do you live with such a capacity for empathy?
Just call me Ghandi or Mother Theresa.
The woman who started this thread recently outlined instances of violence against her and others for being gay, right here in this day and age. Perhaps you should read it.
Yeah, but most of us have experienced some sort of violence over our beliefs or even things we can't change-- like our race. We could all throw a pity party for something or other, right?
Oh, alright, I'll play along. I'm gonna go dress up in drag right now and when people ask me about Valentines Day, I won't divulge the sex of my "significant others."
Don't hate me 'cause I'm beautiful.......... in drag.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-14-2007 2:05 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-14-2007 7:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 26 of 55 (385225)
02-14-2007 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
02-14-2007 5:20 PM


nemesis_juggernaut writes:
"Devil's advocate" would mean I was defending a position that I don't agree with. That is definitely not what I am doing.
So are you a lesbian or not?
Do you understand what "devil's advocate" means?
I'd rather know what its like to be in the shoes of a crippled person, which to me, seems far more grievous than someone who doesn't feel comfortable with divulging their sexual identity.
Shame on you. It's not a "most grievous grievance" contest.
You should have empathy for everybody.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-14-2007 5:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 55 (385245)
02-14-2007 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hyroglyphx
02-14-2007 1:19 PM


Re: The point
People feel stigmatized for all sorts of reasons.
Indeed. This is one of them. People are also starving in India. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
I mean, what exactly does she want?
You to understand why it's all but impossible to avoid "outing" yourself if you want to be honest and communicative with people. You, to understand that blaming gay people for being "obsessed with being out", or whatever, is bullshit.
If she was just born homosexual and I was just born heterosexual, and its noboady's fault, what exactly am I supposed to feel sorry about?
That nobody accuses you of being "obsessed with your sexuality" when you tell people about your wife, children, etc.
Again, I have to ask - how did you miss the point so badly? You did read the whole article, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-14-2007 1:19 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 55 (385248)
02-14-2007 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Hyroglyphx
02-14-2007 5:33 PM


Re: Attitudinal responses
Nowadays, precisely.
Good ol' NJ-style debate. Ignore the facts that oppose your position, and your position will be quite sound.
Yeah, but most of us have experienced some sort of violence over our beliefs or even things we can't change-- like our race. We could all throw a pity party for something or other, right?
Feel free to tell us all about the time someone threw something at your head that made your skull bleed, because you were a white, straight, Christian male.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-14-2007 5:33 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 29 of 55 (385276)
02-14-2007 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaderis
02-14-2007 3:34 AM


Just a Thought
About 'coming out'. It seems easier to do so when you are in love.
You are focused on the object of your love, and you want to share with the world what you have found in that person.
It is therefore natural to speak about the object of your love in any and all circumstances, and to seek any and all opportunities to tell the world that indeed you are happy and blessed amoung men/women. I do not think it is by any means only those of same sex attraction who feel they must 'come out' in love, but that all love seeks to proclaim itself.
In specific, I often feel the 'need' to proclaim love of another. It is a way of showing that this person, despite what anyone else thinks, is worthy of love.
And, rebelling against what others think is the truest expression of love. There is a certain satisfaction in saying; I, a normal, intelligent, productive person, can see past everything else, and find the beauty in this person, be they man, woman, criminal, cripple, old, young, beautiful, black, white, of any background and any shade in between, so you, see them through my eyes.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jaderis, posted 02-14-2007 3:34 AM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-14-2007 9:43 PM anastasia has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 30 of 55 (385279)
02-14-2007 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by anastasia
02-14-2007 9:26 PM


Re: Just a Thought
anastasia:
And, rebelling against what others think is the truest expression of love. There is a certain satisfaction in saying; I, a normal, intelligent, productive person, can see past everything else, and find the beauty in this person, be they man, woman, criminal, cripple, old, young, beautiful, black, white, of any background and any shade in between, so you, see them through my eyes.
A key element in any love story is the contrast it makes with the world of Montagues and Capulets everywhere.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by anastasia, posted 02-14-2007 9:26 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by anastasia, posted 02-14-2007 9:50 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024