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Author Topic:   Religion is for men
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 4 of 77 (383729)
02-08-2007 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
02-08-2007 8:43 PM


she said, he said
Well, there's no denying the male-dominated ratios among famous religious figures in history--at least, when we're discussing the religions most familiar to us today. But I don't see how this differs in kind from the male-dominated ratios you find among famous figures in any field in history. The religious specialty reflects ideas about gender roles that exist in the society as a whole.
My first thought on reading your OP was that it was terribly imprecise. I wondered if Admins might ask you to rework it before going public. Your claim to 'gender radar', for example, is surely based on the different ways men and women are socialized in their use of language. But, as Crashfrog advises, it's best not to be too confident on this point. A number of other factors besides gender influence individuals' use of language. Start thinking you've got the code cracked and you'll get stomped in online gaming.
The other sloppy element, I thought, was the premise:
Historically the vast majority of religious debate and prophesy and writing has been done by males.
You don't really know this. How can you quantify 'debate and prophecy'? When you stood in the market square in Delphi and listened to all the religious debates going on around you, did you do a gender count? How much access do you have to all the prophecies uttered by temple priestesses and priests over the centuries? With the debates that take place within the walls of convents and monasteries around the world? Within the halls of all the churches and religious centers around the world in which, studies suggest, women are more likely to be actively involved than men?
When you turn to 'writing' you are on safer ground. Documented statements about religion in the traditions most familiar to us exhibit a ratio that skews male.
But before one assumes on that basis that males have been doing most of the discussing at all, we might first ask if men's thoughts were more likely to be recorded than women's. I think they were.
For much of the history you are discussing men had access to education that was denied to women. In most societies the genders were also much more segregated in everday life than they are today. This tended to put men in the company of scribes who could write down what they said and keep women out of earshot of anyone who could write what they said. And if it came down to one person, well, a man was more likely to be able to write his own thoughts down than a woman.
It's worth remembering, too, that not everything attributed to a male author was necessarily authored by a man. Women have often used male-sounding pen names in history. Redactors have often attributed women's thoughts to men. Many scholars suspect much or all of The Song of Moses, for example, was originally The Song of Miriam. You also have the question of the invention that lies behind the authorship. The influence of a teacher can be profound. Much of Eckhart's philosophy was clearly influenced by his conversations with nuns. How many of the ideas in his sermons reflect theirs?
Consider too that many of our ancient literary documents preserve oral traditions. This raises the question of the gender ratio among the bards, singers, and elders who were the original tellers of these stories. The gender ratio among the original storytellers was surely different than it would have been among the scribes who wrote the stories down.
We find an imbalance, yes. But the premise as we have it in the OP makes way too many glib assumptions.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : tinkering.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 02-08-2007 8:43 PM Greatest I am has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by anastasia, posted 02-09-2007 12:34 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 6 of 77 (383759)
02-09-2007 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by anastasia
02-09-2007 12:34 AM


Christian history
Thanks for naming names, anastasia. Christians are heir to a rich tradition. If only more of them valued it!
One of the many ways fundamentalism impoverishes people is the way it robs them of their own religious history. Talk to any fundie and the picture of Christianity through the ages you get is (1) once upon a time Christ and the apostles walked around and everything was golden, (2) an Apostacy set in and everything went to hell in a handbasket, (3) the Founder of My Sect came along and fixed everything just in time for the Second Coming. This is myth, not history.
Gender balance exists among mystics in all cultures, it seems, that one doesn't find so much among the scribes. Part of that is surely the way mysticism works across categories, as you say: leading because one is subjective.
Nuances and complexities of history come into play here, too. In late medieval convents women could become literate and get wide-ranging educations even as academies and universities were closed to them. So we get these wonderful documents from Theresa of Avila and Hildegard... including just their names for posterity.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : precision.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by anastasia, posted 02-09-2007 12:34 AM anastasia has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 8 of 77 (383765)
02-09-2007 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by anastasia
02-09-2007 12:34 AM


anastasia:
gender roles play a big part; men are seen as leaders.
Very neatly put. Connecting men with the idea of the appearance of leadership.
I think this is right on the mark. Mind if I explore that idea bit?
All kinds of leadership exist, as you note. Leadership depends on organization, ability to teach, ability to inspire, ability to foresee, specialized skills, many things. On this basis we can ascribe leadership to men and women equally. Do the genders show different aptitudes, statistically speaking? Even so: each aptitude has its uses. Leadership is consequently needed in developing all of them within a community.
Leading doesn't depend on a lot of filigree. The people who most inspire us in life are our truest leaders. Their work is not always synonymous with lasting fame or grand impressions or even official titles. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
Social expectations come into play here, as you say. These certainly influence how leadership gets manifested. (They don't affect as much where it really exists.)
For men visibility of leadership traditionally plays an important role. Why? Because for men a close link exists between being seen as a leader and being seen as a desirable sexual partner. Men themselves are not primarily responsible for making this linkage, either. It originates in the sexual choices of women. But it's fair to say that this as heavy an expectation put on men as the linkage between beauty and desirability is for women.
For this reason the more visible forms of leadership have always been, and for the foreseeable future may continue to be, more heavily pursued by males of the species. Women today have the option of becoming highly visible leaders in society in a way formerly reserved just for men. This is all to the good. But for men the acquisition of visible authority still stands as something more than an option. It looms as a kind of imperative. Society tells men that leadership--or, at least, the overt display of something looking very much like it--is something they need if they want more of, well, something they need.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brevity.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by anastasia, posted 02-09-2007 12:34 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by anastasia, posted 02-09-2007 1:18 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 70 of 77 (385324)
02-15-2007 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Jon
02-15-2007 12:26 AM


Jon makes a good point. Generalizations often cause mischief in discussions of gender. We have to use them, it seems, yet it's necessary to use them and take them with a helping of salt.
Studies show differences, for example, in the way the brains of women and men assign function. Each form of wiring has its strengths and weaknesses and each represents a compromise. Yet it's not hard to imagine ways the two approaches might be complementing each other in human society. And even so, the brains of men and women remain far more alike than they are different.
When it gets to cases generalizations break down all the time. Statistically we know, for example, that men are more likely to use sports metaphors and women are more likely to have a large vocabulary for color and texture. We can argue about how much stereotypes influence this statistic and how much the statistic shapes the sterotypes.
But when it gets to individuals the generalizations often break down anyway. Someone from a household of athletes is more likely to use sports metaphors than someone from a household of social workers. An artist is likely to possess a wider vocabulary for color than a chemical engineer. A more educated person is likely to have a larger vocabulary on most subjects than less educated person. These things hold true regardless of the gender of the individuals involved.
Many things influence who we are and what we do. Statistics are interesting, but people are more interesting.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Jon, posted 02-15-2007 12:26 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Greatest I am, posted 02-15-2007 2:27 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 73 of 77 (385940)
02-18-2007 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
02-08-2007 8:43 PM


the 'transformational' leadership style
An article about leadership styles appeared this week in Psychology Today. Research suggests that female leaders do slightly better than male leaders in sustaining 'transformational' leadership styles that involve acting as a mentor and building relationships.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 02-08-2007 8:43 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Greatest I am, posted 02-18-2007 8:34 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 77 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-19-2007 12:35 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
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