The Flood

Charley,Do you realize that Humphreys simply made up the reversals? Do you think that making up data to support your ideas is solid science? Do you know that Humphreys misrepresented the data of Coe et al? Do you think it's ok to misrepresent others in order to support your ideas? I've dissected Humphreys arguments here:Is the EarthI doubt you'll bother to read it since it contains things you may be scared of seeing in your protected young earth environment, but others may be interested.CheersJoe Meert

He might of seen it as evidence from the rapid reversal due to the external forces that started the reversals were more energetic. But to the uniformitarists the flood never happened thus they disclude the trigger and assume a spontaneous process. It appears you agree with Humphreys for the past century and concludes that the dipole energy has fallen off more rapidly than the off-dipole terms.----------------------------------------The answer, quite frankly, is not much at all. Humphreys seems to think it is of some importance. He spends much time calculating the energies of the dipole and off-dipole terms (octupole, quadrupolar and higher order terms) for the past century and concludes that the dipole energy has fallen off more rapidly than the off-dipole terms. I don't dispute this, but do dispute the conclusions reached by Humphreys that this observation has anything whatsoever to do with the age of the earth.Is the Earth I thought the reversals are cast in stone sort of you know, the problem might well be was there a causation as suggested by a Richard Muller that geomagnetic reversals are not spontaneous processes but triggered by external events which disrupts the flow in the Earths core. It appears to me this is more the premise of Humphreys that the takes into account catastrophic events in the Earths past, such as the biblical flood. If the earth gets shaken again will that reset the magnetic strengths and cause a new round of magnetic reversals."If" Muller is right its more about external events that triggers them magnetic reversals and not necessarily a spontaneous process that can only be explained by an old earth. The Creationists believe the biblical flood was a catastrophic event that triggered some of the magnetic reversals and then by squeezing the data for the last 5,000 years you would tend to get a curve such as expressed by Humphreys.The uniformitarnists likely will they not date the index fossils by radioisotope dating methods and verify radioisotope dating methods by the index fossils which is it not a bit circular for them to say index fossil is proof that the magnetic reversals are old.The uniformitanists beliefs in an old earth is like weighing a fly on a truck scale making this kind of circular reasoning meaningless when the fly is them index fossils.-------------------------------The Earth's magnetic north pole is drifting from northern Canada towards Siberia with a presently accelerating rate -- 10km per year at the beginning of the 20th century, up to 40km per year in 2003.[2] It is also unknown if this drift will continue to accelerate.A minority opinion, held by such figures as Richard A. Muller, is that geomagnetic reversals are not spontaneous processes but rather triggered by external events which directly disrupt the flow in the Earth's core. Such processes may include the arrival of continental slabs carried down into the mantle by the action of plate tectonics at subduction zones, the initiation of new mantle plumes from the core-mantle boundary, and possibly mantle-core shear forces resulting from very large impact events.Geomagnetic reversal - WikipediaEdited by Charley, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Then, I think, Anglagard, made a comment on how water can come rushing up without causation.

---

You misunderstood. You sort if snidely remarked on how its basically impossible for water to rush up because it defies gravity. I'm telling you that its not impossible and gave you a reference of how water can rush up. I'm not saying it was a geyser. How would I know that? I'm simply illustrating how water can come up. I'm sure stranger things have happened. What ever event happened in the distant past may never be known. All we can do is go by what we currently know about things. Its kind of like the First Cause. Are we ever going to know how life began? Its doubtful. But it doesn't stop any one from hypothesizing, nor should it deter us from investigation. Are you going to tell me that there aren't underground springs? Are you also going to tell me that the earth's core couldn't heat up and create pressure in that spring? Water, indeed, can be under rock. I do believe the Flood was a miracle. I have no contention with it. I'm adverse to most theories concerning the Flood being spoken about with certainty when the causation of such a thing would likely not be known. I think I've been pretty tame about the whole thing. All I've done is critique a book and relay what the author has written. I'm also relaying what Moses wrote. I'm not making any definitive assertions. All I have done is offer some hypotheses about how might it have been possible and what some of the telltale evidence might look like.

---

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

quote:

---

He might of seen it as evidence from the rapid reversal due to the external forces that started the reversals were more energetic. But to the uniformitarists the flood never happened thus they disclude the trigger and assume a spontaneous process.

---

This makes no sense at all. Do you want to say it again, in English? Coe et al did not document reversals in the Steen's mountain anomalous sequence. They noticed a series of intermediate directions between flows containing normal and reverse directions. These flows, incidentally, are terrestrial lavas not submarine. These flows, by the way, contain evidence of erosion between them.

quote:

---

It appears you agree with Humphreys for the past century and concludes that the dipole energy has fallen off more rapidly than the off-dipole terms.

---

Yes, but the field strength is still above what it was in the past according to the archeomagnetic measurements.You did not answer my question about Humphreys inventing reversals in the database where none exist. See if you can read the relevant sections again carefully. Or maybe you can show me a reversal in the archeomagnetic data that Humphreys used (hint: there are none).CheersJoe Meert

It is nice to have you here again Joe but please do not waste your time on the likes of "Charley". He is a complete loon who just makes up crap as he goes along. I'm not sure if "troll" is the word but his posts smell like one.It would be nice of you to use your scarce time where it will do some good.

Thanks for the information and the welcome back. I'm definitely not here to feed the trolls.CheersJoe Meert

I'm fine with you saying it was a miracle, but it's a miracle with no evidence to support it and a huge amount to suggest it never happened.Are you implicitly arguing that God divinically made the flood and left no trace whatsoever?

From wikipedia:

quote:

---

List of prehistoric insects - Wikipedia
The differences between modern and prehistoric varieties can be essential, and, like many other creatures of prehistory, the latter tended to be much larger than their contemporary equivalents. This size difference is thought to be due to higher atmospheric oxygen levels (allowing diffusion through spiracles over greater distances) and higher temperatures (enhancing metabolism).

---

quote:

---

Meganeura - Wikipedia
Meganeura monyi was a prehistoric insect of the Carboniferous period (300 million years ago), resembling and related to the present-day dragonfly. With a wingspan of more than 75 cm (2 feet) wide, it was the largest known flying insect species to ever appear on earth (the Permian Meganeuropsis permiana being another contender). It was predatory, feeding on small amphibians and other insects.

​

Controversy has prevailed as to how insects of the Carboniferous period were able to grow so large. The way oxygen is diffused through the insect's body via its tracheal breathing system puts an upper limit on body size, which prehistoric insects seem to have well exceeded. It was originally proposed (Harlé & Harlé, 1911) that Meganeura was only able to fly because the atmosphere at that time contained more oxygen than the present 20 percent. This theory was dismissed by fellow scientists, but has found approval more recently through further study into the relationship between gigantism and oxygen availability (Chapelle & Peck, Nature, 1999). If this theory is correct, these insect giants would have been perilously susceptible to falling oxygen levels and certainly could not survive in our modern atmosphere.

---

Two feet is not twelve ... and compares to the largest today:

quote:

---

Largest organisms - Wikipedia
Dragonflies (Odonata). The largest living species of dragonfly is Megaloprepus caeruleata, attaining a size of as much as 19 cm (7.5 in) across the wings and a body length of over 12 cm (4.7 in).

---

They don't list either the body length for Meganeura monyi nor the body weight for Megaloprepus caeruleata, so comparisons of anything but the wings is not possible here, and that is not valid for body size.

quote:

---

http://uwnews.washington.edu/ni/article.asp?articleID=27608
Vertebrate creatures first began moving from the world's oceans to land about 415 million years ago, then all but disappeared by 360 million years ago. The fossil record contains few examples of animals with backbones for the next 15 million years, and then suddenly vertebrates show up again, this time for good.

​

Now a team of scientists led by University of Washington paleontologist Peter Ward has found a similar gap during the same period among non-marine arthropods, largely insects and spiders, and they believe a precipitous drop in the oxygen content of Earth's atmosphere is responsible.

​

He notes that atmospheric oxygen rose sharply at the end of the Silurian period about 415 million years ago, to reach a level of about 22 percent of the atmosphere, similar to today's oxygen content. But 55 million years later, atmospheric oxygen levels sank to 10 percent to 13 percent. The level remained low for 30 million years -- during which Romer's Gap occurred -- then shot up again, and vertebrates and arthropods again began moving from the sea to land.

​

The paper also is part of Ward's new book, "Out of Thin Air: Dinosaurs, Birds and Earth's Ancient Atmosphere," published this month by Joseph Henry Press. In the book, Ward argues that dinosaurs became the monsters that ruled the Earth for more than 60 million years -- and survived mass extinctions that destroyed many other species -- because they developed respiratory systems far more efficient than other terrestrial creatures.

​

Dinosaurs first appeared in the last part of the Triassic period, about 230 million years ago. That was during one of the lowest ebbs of atmospheric oxygen content of the last 500 million years, but he speculates that it took some time, until oxygen levels rose appreciably, before dinosaurs grew to their familiar gargantuan sizes.

​

"Dinosaurs thrived and nothing else did. There's an explanation for that, and it is that the air sac breathing system in dinosaurs and their descendants, modern birds, is more efficient than systems used by other organisms," Ward said.

---

The fact is that oxygen was almost non-existent early in the course of life on earth (until released by microbes), then it reached several high points, one roughly in the carboniferous period and another during the age of dinosaurs, and is lower now - with several oscillations in between.Multiple highs and lows are not explained by one (1) event.Enjoy.

---

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

LOL! The way some of you people debate one would never ever think you believed that to be the case.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Not only without a trace, but with an 'anti-trace'. Apparently the flood left a geologic record full of evidence that disproves the global flood. A miracle indeed!Science, AntiScience and Geology: An Update on the Forest Fires at Ghost RanchCheersJoe Meert

Where would one go for a source on this early low oxygen?

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Here are some papers on the subject of oxygenation of the atmosphere;Berner, R.A., Beerling, D.J., Dudley, R., Robinson, J.M., Wildman,R.J. Jr., 2003. Phanerozoic atmospheric oxygen, Annual Reviews of Earth and Planetary Science, 31, 105-134.Canfield D.E. and Teske A. 1996. Late Proterozoic rise in atmospheric oxygen concentration inferred from phylogenetic and sulphurisotope studies. Nature, 382,127-132.Canfield, D.E., Poulton, S.W., Narbonne, G.M., 2007. Late-Neoproterozoic Deep-ocean oxygenation and the rise of animal life, Science, 315, 92-95.Garrels R.M., Perry E.A. Jr., Mackenzie F.T. 1973. Genesis of Precambrian iron-formations and the development of atmospheric oxygen, Economic Geology, 68:1173-1179.one on biological implicationsAcquisti, C., Kleffe, J., Collins, S., 2007. Oxygen content of transmembrane proteins over macroevolutionary time scales, Nature, 47-52Edited by Joe Meert, : No reason given.Edited by Joe Meert, : No reason given.

Well we can have a very high degree of confidence in those things that we know to be false.For example, Noah's Flood.Never happened.Anyone who claims it did is simply repeating a falsehood.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Should have said atmospheric oxygen. It was tied up in oxides, like the rocks today. The evidence is in the sedimentary layers of red iron that were not fully oxidized.This was before aerobic bacteria evolved from anaerobic ones: the anaerobic ones released the oxygen as by-products of their metabolism - CO2 and CH4 (methane) (like some anaerobic ones today) - and plants then evolved to use the CO2 and release O2.http://gsa.confex.com/...1ESP/finalprogram/abstract_7607.htm
http://gsa.confex.com/...1ESP/finalprogram/abstract_6525.htm
http://gsa.confex.com/...1ESP/finalprogram/abstract_7978.htmIt took a while for the atmospheric Oxygen to build up enough to make a difference.This is before any multicellular life existed.Also see Timeline of the evolutionary history of life - WikipediaEnjoy.Edited by RAZD, : added atmospheric to oxygen at end

---

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

I know what you're saying, but I have to contend with it on the basis of what is the most reasonable assumption. Of course the two Icthyosaurs didn't have to be suddenly buried. But if they weren't, how is it that scavengers did not pick it apart, especially since maceration would greatly exacerbate the process of putrefaction. If it were buried very suddenly, that would serve to best preserve the specimens, no? That doesn't mean that is what happened, but it certainly would lend credence to it. Well, it certainly died while giving birth. There could have been complications, there could have been a congenital defect that killed the mother and the pup couldn't exit the birth canal. But I am astonished at how well preserved they both were. Besides, as far as I can tell, Icthyosaurs are chondrichthyes, like sharks, in that they are cartilaginous, not skeletal. Cartilage needs to be preserved quickly to make the imprints of their remains, which is why we rarely find shark remains. But I'm not certain that they are chondrichthyes.

---

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis