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Author Topic:   The Flood
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 166 of 188 (385476)
02-15-2007 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Hyroglyphx
02-15-2007 7:09 PM


Re: wee off topic
They are reptiles; they can't be chondrichthyes. They evolved from bony fish I don't see them losing that. They had bony skeletons.
Why scavengers didn't pick them apart I don't know since I don't know the conditions where they died. I gave a couple of reasons why that is possible even with slow burial and they may well have been buried reasonably quickly.

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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 167 of 188 (385478)
02-15-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by RAZD
02-15-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Nothing Empirical
Alright, all I remember was that Discovery said the dragonfly was as large as a Eagle.
Hmmm, but as common sense it would make sense that high levels of oxygen would allow large organisms to evolve to utilize the increased levels.

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 168 of 188 (385479)
02-15-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Hyroglyphx
02-15-2007 12:47 PM


Re: Telling the Truth
NJ writes:
You sort if snidely remarked on how its basically impossible for water to rush up because it defies gravity. I'm telling you that its not impossible and gave you a reference of how water can rush up.
When I use the term 'water' I mean, like most the people I know, the liquid state of H2O. When water is in a gaseous state, I use the term steam, or in a solid state, I use the term ice. When water is heated enough and goes into a gaseous state it can indeed rise above rock and liquid water as it is less dense than its surroundings.
I'm simply illustrating how water can come up. I'm sure stranger things have happened. What ever event happened in the distant past may never be known. All we can do is go by what we currently know about things. Its kind of like the First Cause. Are we ever going to know how life began? Its doubtful. But it doesn't stop any one from hypothesizing, nor should it deter us from investigation.
Are you saying that it is possible for water to flow 'uphill' under atmospheric pressure? Do you believe that scientists should go around looking for instances or evidence where water flows uphill just because you say it might have?
Us painters used to say plumbers had to only know two things, shit goes downhill and payday's on Friday. My advice to you is don't try to become a plumber, You're not qualified.
Are you going to tell me that there aren't underground springs?
Most of the things people call springs are at the surface of the earth. In virtually all instances, springs are caused by water flowing downhill from a nearby or even distant higher elevation. On rare occasions water can come up due to pressure much greater than atmospheric from below, but these occurrences are rare, localized, and temporary. They also require the breaching of an impermeable layer, something that can not continuously extend over the entire surface of the earth due to things like faults, volcanoes, plate tectonics, lateral variability in formations etc.
Are you also going to tell me that the earth's core couldn't heat up and create pressure in that spring?
The only way the earth's core would heat up is if the pressure increased. The only way the pressure can increase is if the mass of the earth increases. Other than that, yes, I am going to tall you the earth's core will not heat up "just because it feels like it."
Also, if water reaches enough heat it turns to steam. Warmer water does not significantly increase in volume unless it changes state to steam/vapor, but then it is in a gaseous state, not a liquid state. If you don't believe me, heat a cup of water in a microwave and observe what happens to the volume as its temperature increases.
Water, indeed, can be under rock.
In virtually all cases groundwater is not 'under' rock, it is in the pores of the rock. The only water I know of that is 'under' rock is in cavepools. Notice how even air is under rock in caves. This does not mean that the air or the water is heavier than the rock, it means that under local conditions where the overhead rock is held up by the rocks on the sides and therefore below, holes in the rock can occur.
In fact, when the 'caves' are really small, they are called pores. The pores are where the water is in aquifers. the water is in the pores because, if it can get there, it is heavier than the air formerly in the pores and displaces it. When it rains on the surface, this is what happens, the water goes downhill so to speak. After a rain the surface is unsaturated, a zone below, called the vadoze zone, is partially saturated, and below that lies the fully saturated zone.
Deep in the earth, there are no more pores due to pressure and any water or air becomes part of the rock.
Do you understand why hydrologists say that the water is in the rock instead of under the rock?
Also for such water to come up out of the rock, it had to have a greater force than gravity applied to it in order to make it go up. If this force is pressure as a result of heat, then the water would have to achieve a gaseous state to come up, which is why such a force that would bury Mt. Everest with water would poach any ark, unless it had a force field of some sort like in Star Trek.
BTW, if that much energy had been released 4500 years ago this planet would be like Venus today, not earth.
I do believe the Flood was a miracle. I have no contention with it. I'm adverse to most theories concerning the Flood being spoken about with certainty when the causation of such a thing would likely not be known. I think I've been pretty tame about the whole thing. All I've done is critique a book and relay what the author has written. I'm also relaying what Moses wrote. I'm not making any definitive assertions. All I have done is offer some hypotheses about how might it have been possible and what some of the telltale evidence might look like.
First, I have never seen or heard of objects of higher density float above objects of lower density. Second I have never seen or heard of water at atmospheric pressure flowing uphill. While some people may curse the laws of physics, they still can't defy them or provide examples of their wholesale violation without being in danger of winning a Nobel, or disbarring that, being thought a looney.
Do you understand that I have issues with people, like Charley, who say the continents could have 'floated' on water? Do you understand why I have issues with people who say water can flow uphill? Do you understand that I have issues with people who blatantly misrepresent what I have said and then imply it's my fault because I supposedly misunderstood? (see previous post)
Learn some physics and try to be honest with yourself before you lecture me on your 'higher moral standards,' wisdom, and openmindedness.
Edited by anglagard, : clarify by using under atmospheric pressure, water does not flow uphill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-15-2007 12:47 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 169 of 188 (385496)
02-15-2007 8:01 PM


water flows uphill
Not to be argumentative, but water can and does flow uphill for short distances. This is not a big deal since it happens a lot in mountain streams. It is a special occurrence (related to the momentum of the water) and not a regular situation. I think ramjets and syphons are also examples where water can flow up (although technically still down a pressure gradient)
Cheers
Joe Meert
Edited by Joe Meert, : No reason given.

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 170 of 188 (385497)
02-15-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Hyroglyphx
02-13-2007 12:34 PM


Wondering Where Moses Said That
Whether it was hot water or cold water is inconsequential to the story. The fact relayed by Moses and other civilizations is that, yes, nothing not on board the vessel survived either way.
I was wondering where Moses said nothing on board the vessel survived this global flood? By vessel do you mean the ark?

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 171 of 188 (385504)
02-15-2007 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by anglagard
02-15-2007 7:31 PM


Re: Telling the Truth
Do you understand that I have issues with people, like Charley, who say the continents could have 'floated' on water?
Its called water hydraulics due waters incompressability even with miles of rocks above its still able to hydraulically press the particles apart.
Edited by Charley, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 172 of 188 (385508)
02-15-2007 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Joe Meert
02-15-2007 8:01 PM


Re: water flows uphill
You forgot capillary action
OK you got me, there are significantly less than global examples of water 'flowing uphill' if one considers momentum or other forces locally overcoming gravity.
The important question regarding the source and action of any 'fountains of the deep' is do any of these small-scale examples disprove isostasy?

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 173 of 188 (385509)
02-15-2007 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by anglagard
02-15-2007 7:31 PM


Re: Telling the Truth
say plumbers had to only know two things, shit goes downhill and payday's on Friday.
Three things. Those, and "don't bite your fingernails."

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 174 of 188 (385514)
02-15-2007 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by johnfolton
02-15-2007 8:22 PM


Shear Waves
Its called water hydraulics due waters incompressability even with miles of rocks above its still able to hydraulically press the particles apart.
It's called geophysics due to the fact that it is the physics of the earth. There is no layer of water below the continents not just because the continents are denser than water but also because the water would not permit shear waves to be transmitted. This is because liquids do not shear and every recorded observation of shear waves in the earth show they go through everything until they reach the depth of the liquid outer core.

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Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 175 of 188 (385515)
02-15-2007 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by anglagard
02-15-2007 8:45 PM


Re: Shear Waves
the outer core, which should be mentioned, is an iron/nickel combination. w/o it, no magnetic field.

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Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 176 of 188 (385522)
02-15-2007 9:05 PM


water in the mantle
We have to be careful when we define things in science. Technically speaking there is water in the mantle, but it's bound in such a way as to be totally irrelevant to the flood models. Water in the biotite lattice does not threaten Noah or any of his animals.
Cheers
Joe Meert

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 177 of 188 (385524)
02-15-2007 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by anglagard
02-15-2007 8:45 PM


Re: Shear Waves
This poster is a troll and does not engage in rational or honest debate. Answer at the risk of wasting your time.
It's called geophysics due to the fact that it is the physics of the earth. There is no layer of water below the continents not just because the continents are denser than water but also because the water would not permit shear waves to be transmitted. This is because liquids do not shear and every recorded observation of shear waves in the earth show they go through everything until they reach the depth of the liquid outer core.
The bible in respect to the flood says the fountains of the deep have been all broken up and interestingly this is in fact whats been documented when drilling deep within the earth.
----------------------------------------
To scientists, one of the more fascinating findings to emerge from this well is that the change in seismic velocities was not found at a boundary marking Jeffreys' hypothetical transition from granite to basalt; it was at the bottom of a layer of metamorphic rock that extended from about 5 to 10 kilometers beneath the surface. The rock there had been thoroughly fractured and was saturated with water, which was surprising. This water, which unlike surface water must have come from deep-crust minerals, had been unable to reach the surface because of a layer of impermeable rock.
Kola Superdeep Borehole - Wikipedia
Edited by AdminNosy, : to provide warning

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 178 of 188 (385540)
02-15-2007 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by johnfolton
02-15-2007 9:08 PM


Re: Shear Waves
C'mon, Nosy! At least he's our troll!

This message is a reply to:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 179 of 188 (385542)
02-15-2007 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Coragyps
02-15-2007 10:35 PM


Re: Shear Waves
I honestly don't know how one can be a YEC flood advocate and not be troll or a devil advocate.
The good Geology threads around here go dark real quick.
Sieging against evolution one can get some traction; but arguing against an old earth and universe requires a certain compartmentalization between what you want to believe and what is obvious from first-hand observable evidence.

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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 180 of 188 (385551)
02-16-2007 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by iceage
02-15-2007 10:47 PM


Re: Shear Waves
They could actually believe it. I have run into a few anti-christian trolls who go about acting like a ridiculously ignorant person to make the religion look bad.
The good threads go dark because of the fundemental principle of literal Creationism: Dishonest.

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