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Author Topic:   Conventionalism is Dead - Society does NOT determine what is moral.
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 1 of 9 (383559)
02-08-2007 3:11 PM


Society determines what is moral.

Any intellectual can see that this case for justice is pathetic.

Anything goes. If a man killed me for looking at him, and society allowed it, this death would be just and correct.

We determine what is right and moral with reason. We are born with the ability to know what is right. We do not determine what is moral through societal majorities.

Societal majorities don't reason, societal majorities are not rational beings.

Socrates

A group of men emerged out of ancient Greece who thought that the goal of life was to live the best life you could, the happiest life that you could - to "win the game of life". To live for oneself was established as the moral life. They were known in Greece as the most intelligent and the most respected - they established huge amounts of money from their practices. They would take money to teach people how to "defend themselves" in arguments. This was amazingly valuable because of the court system in Greece. If someone charged you with a crime, you had to defend yourself, if you were judged innocent by your 500 peers then you were allowed to choose any punishment for the accuser - if a severe punishment was put into place, one could offer to pay a fine normally, but this was actually a reasonable system of justice - better than our current system in America. So these sophists would teach people the art of "eristics" the art of winning a debate for the sake of winning not for the sake of finding out what is true or right. They argued not to know but to remain ignorant and to win. (Eris was the Goddess of Argument of Discord). They would charge a lot of money for their services - they became "successful", they were rich they lived a good life. They Won the "game of life". That is their entire purpose - to win the game of life. To win you became rich and old.

These men believed that no truth existed and that everyone's opinion was correct. What you believe is "true for you", and what I believe is "true for me". Of course living in this manner completely shuts down the need for reason and knowledge. It breeds ignorant individuals who seek success, comfort, and money instead of truth.

It is called "Relativism", "Sophism", and "Conventionalism".

"Conventionalism" is specifically what jar was referring to, "society determines truth". "Society determines what is moral".

These men were called Sophists.

A man called Socrates would emerge out of this.

Plato, his best student recorded almost exactly the words of Socrates. (This was found by a speech at Socrates death that was written down by Plato in "The Apology", a man who also attended the death/trial was there and recorded the exact same happenings and words) (The Greeks could not use paper and pens the way we do, their memories were extraordinary from repeated use.) Socrates in short, told the people of Athens that the good life was the examined life, a life in pursuit of truth and knowledge. He went through Athens asking questions to educate people in what he knew. The questions became increasingly disturbing as he kept asking because they destroy the beliefs and ignorance of those asked. The process was very unsettling. People began to detest this man of truth.

In Plato's works, he recorded dialogues between Sophists and Socrates where Socrates refutes their claims through his famous "Socratic Method". He starts with a question such as, "What is Justice". The Sophist would reply - "Whatever the elders say is right and just, is just", Socrates would continue asking questions about how they came to this conclusion until they realized that they were utterly mistaken. Socrates would then tell them what Justice really is and most would feel offended and walk away.

Socrates in short believed, that justice was for each to "mind his own business" and do what each does best.

This post is probably a dishonor to Socrates and Plato, but I feel it is good enough for this purpose.

Hopefully it is clear that Conventionalism is dead.

This was way too much for such a statement.

Edited by prophex, : No reason given.

Edited by prophex, : No reason given.

Edited by prophex, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 02-08-2007 3:28 PM joshua221 has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-08-2007 8:37 PM joshua221 has not yet responded
 Message 7 by AdminPD, posted 02-16-2007 11:59 AM joshua221 has responded

AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1909
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 9 (383569)
02-08-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
02-08-2007 3:11 PM


Reframing the argument
I would be more inclined to promote this topic if you simply left jar out of it and wished to outline Socrates argument.

  • If you find the argument at another link, you can give us the link here. I will promote the topic to Links and information.

  • If you feel that I am ignorant of the facts, you can argue with me and we can promote this to Coffee House.

    s your basic premise hinged on the idea that there is a moral absolute that is basically irrefutable?

    I know that there is a basic moral absolute belief, but I also am aware that beliefs are relative, seeing how we can never prove them otherwise.....or can you enlighten us? ;)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by joshua221, posted 02-08-2007 3:11 PM joshua221 has not yet responded

      
  • Adminnemooseus
    Director
    Posts: 3879
    Joined: 09-26-2002


    Message 3 of 9 (383698)
    02-08-2007 8:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
    02-08-2007 3:11 PM


    Topic title sucks!
    How about something related to the topic's theme? If you can't come up with a decent title, why should I bother looking at message 1?

    Adminnemooseus

    For the record, the original title is/was "Jar is Wrong".


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by joshua221, posted 02-08-2007 3:11 PM joshua221 has not yet responded

      
    joshua221 
    Inactive Suspended Member


    Message 4 of 9 (384045)
    02-09-2007 8:42 PM


    The statement "Society/Culture decides what is moral" is untrue.
    Replies to this message:
     Message 5 by AdminPD, posted 02-14-2007 6:32 AM joshua221 has responded

    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 5 of 9 (385102)
    02-14-2007 6:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by joshua221
    02-09-2007 8:42 PM


    quote:
    The statement "Society/Culture decides what is moral" is untrue.
    That should have been your opening statement.

    Now make your case for that statement since that is your position.

    You haven't made a coherent case so far. Many people think as Jar does, so pointing the thread at him is fruitless and makes you come off whiney.

    You said that Socrates proved your statement centuries ago. Show how he did that.

    If you want this to fly, put some substance in it. If you just wanted to vent, then we can close the proposal.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by joshua221, posted 02-09-2007 8:42 PM joshua221 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 10:08 AM AdminPD has not yet responded

    joshua221 
    Inactive Suspended Member


    Message 6 of 9 (385573)
    02-16-2007 10:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 5 by AdminPD
    02-14-2007 6:32 AM


    Ok, it's good I think.

    Had some recent inspiration to put this one back through because of my intro to philosophy class. We went through Socrates and The Sophists, ended with Plato to begin next week.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by AdminPD, posted 02-14-2007 6:32 AM AdminPD has not yet responded

    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 7 of 9 (385596)
    02-16-2007 11:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
    02-08-2007 3:11 PM


    Still Needs Work
    Title is better although I would drop the "Conventionalism is Dead" part.

    So your position is that Society does not determine what is moral.

    Forget the quotes at the top and make your case. Don't write like you're talking to jar.

    You say that the idea that society determines what is moral was destroyed centuries ago by Socrates. Show how.

    You're correct, you haven't done an adequate job with this argument. Your post is weak. You're arguing from the defensive position. Don't.

    You're starting a topic, make your general argument for your position. Show the evidence or whatever supports your position.

    You've been on this board long enough, start learning how to make a good presentation.

    Sorry for being direct, but I'm short on time. Let me know when you need another review.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by joshua221, posted 02-08-2007 3:11 PM joshua221 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 4:25 PM AdminPD has responded

    joshua221 
    Inactive Suspended Member


    Message 8 of 9 (385649)
    02-16-2007 4:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by AdminPD
    02-16-2007 11:59 AM


    Re: Still Needs Work
    I hope the content is worthy and that this is an ample OP.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by AdminPD, posted 02-16-2007 11:59 AM AdminPD has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by AdminPD, posted 02-16-2007 5:44 PM joshua221 has not yet responded

    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 9 of 9 (385661)
    02-16-2007 5:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by joshua221
    02-16-2007 4:25 PM


    Topic Promoted to Social Issues and Creation/Evolution
    Now that's an opening post I can promote. :)

    Thread copied to the Conventionalism is Dead - Society does NOT determine what is moral thread in the Social Issues and Creation/Evolution forum.

    This copy of the thread has been closed.

    Edited by AdminPD, : Typo


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by joshua221, posted 02-16-2007 4:25 PM joshua221 has not yet responded

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