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Author Topic:   Immigration issues
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 130 (385207)
02-14-2007 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by macaroniandcheese
02-14-2007 3:53 PM


The ladies love a good Fantastic Four reference
And to you, ma'am!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-14-2007 3:53 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 130 (385209)
02-14-2007 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by macaroniandcheese
02-13-2007 9:01 PM


Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
i really think you need to take some time to learn about how taxes work.
I think I have a handle on it. Thanks anyway.
companies have to pay taxes from their profits. this is completely unrelated to the sales tax that state governments charges CONSUMERS for the purchase of goods and services. the reason the stores collect sales tax is because it would be completely unenforceable to require people to mail their receipts and a tax payment.
No argument here.
florida, for one, does not have a state income tax (as mentioned by several other people).
I didn't need them to tell me. I was a resident for 26 years.
so considering that i live around 5000 a year below the poverty line here, and almost anyone who works makes more than i do and thus spends more than i do, my measly 140 a month in non-income taxes is no doubt dwarfed by even the inputs of illegals. also note, i don't have car payments and i don't pay my own insurance.
Do you understand how most illegals live? They live with family members because they can't even get an apartment without a lease. You can't get a lease without a credit check. You can't get a credit check without social security number. You can't get a social security number without being a resident of the United States. Therefore, they live in communal homes and pay the legal person the share for money and living space. So I'm willing to bet that you, even on a meager income, pay more taxes than the average illegal alien.
they also say their cost associated with illegals is between $148-$188 million. of course, they include citizen children of undocumented workers, as though somehow these children are less deserving of their american birthright than the children of "real americans" like good, white, baptist, americans from alabama.
A "real" American is anyone born in the United States or has been naturalized, legally, by the United States immigration and naturalization service. There is a "birthright." Every country has a birthright, because they are obligated to take care of their residents.
the center for immigration studies says that the illegals would actually cost twice as much or more if they were legal. how funny is that?
Exactly. Because they'd be paying what any average citizen has to pay by law. Your reply sounds as if you favor illegal immigration, but in other replies you seem to see some downsides to it. What are the dangers of a free border in your mind? Because if you don't see taxes as a problem, and you don't see them taking jobs away from Americans, then what reason would you have to oppose it?

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-13-2007 9:01 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-14-2007 5:14 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 109 by kuresu, posted 02-14-2007 8:27 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 108 of 130 (385217)
02-14-2007 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Hyroglyphx
02-14-2007 4:26 PM


Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
Exactly. Because they'd be paying what any average citizen has to pay by law. Your reply sounds as if you favor illegal immigration, but in other replies you seem to see some downsides to it. What are the dangers of a free border in your mind? Because if you don't see taxes as a problem, and you don't see them taking jobs away from Americans, then what reason would you have to oppose it?
actually, you seem to not have understood what i said. if illegal immigrants were legal, they would cost the government at least twice as much money.
i think illegal immigration is wrong, but unlike you, i don't see these people as criminals. they're not taking jobs away from americans that they wouldn't be taking if they were legal. taking our jobs is an argument against all immigration, not against illegal immigration.
i'm not really certain i see much danger in a free border, but a free border would mean that all immigrants would be legal.
the reason i oppose it is because it is illegal to come here illegally, silly. but i don't think anything about these people or how they live makes them inherently evil. what i would like to see is a change in our immigration policy to make it much easier to come here at all and a chance for these tax-paying individuals to be on the right side of the law. i would like to see action by the developed world to aid other nations in making improvements instead of continuying to let our companies take advantage of their citizens and sapping all the money from their economic systems.
i'm not interested in the crazy ideas that we should keep other or more people out of our nation. i'm interested in creatig a better world for our citizens and the citizens of other nations.

This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 109 of 130 (385263)
02-14-2007 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Hyroglyphx
02-14-2007 4:26 PM


Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
Every country has a birthright, because they are obligated to take care of their residents
not true. check up on switzerland. I'm not sure the age, but you are not a citizen until you pass a specific age to begin with (and I want to say it's in the teen years). there are no "natural-born" citizens in switzerland, is my point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-14-2007 4:26 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 110 of 130 (385797)
02-17-2007 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Chiroptera
02-14-2007 10:54 AM


Re: Check out the subsequent generations
Chiroptera writes:
Huh. So an individual Mexican shouldn't be allowed into the United States because he might be a criminal? And because his children might be lazy?
Go back to reading class.
I did not say that.
I did not say stop LEGAL immigration.
The whole is issue is about unchecked, unregulated invasion versus the immigration policy that is the law.
If you let anyone in, you get criminials in addition to workers.
This is a fact that doesn't seem to fit in the ears of most liberals.
The war on poverty has not made much progress. There is a saying that "poverty breeds poverty", and evidence is all over the world. It is much easier to educate and inspire a smaller number of impoverished people than a mass of them. This has nothing to do with race, either. So, we can take in a limited number, as our law has been set-up to do.
As for laziness of subsequent generations... this is not race-related either. The work-seeking immigrants are hard-working because they know poverty in a way that the USA does not. We at least have social programs for citizens that help the poor much beyond the point that the originating country supplies. Consequently, the need to work is much diminished in this country. That is why "Americans don't want to do the work that the illegal immigrants are willing to do."

'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Chiroptera, posted 02-14-2007 10:54 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 121 by nator, posted 02-18-2007 7:29 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 111 of 130 (385808)
02-17-2007 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by ThingsChange
02-17-2007 8:26 AM


Re: Check out the subsequent generations
we are all citizens of the world. what gives you a right to draw lines?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ThingsChange, posted 02-17-2007 8:26 AM ThingsChange has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ThingsChange, posted 02-17-2007 9:38 AM RAZD has replied

  
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 112 of 130 (385811)
02-17-2007 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by RAZD
02-17-2007 9:14 AM


Re: Check out the subsequent generations
RAZD writes:
we are all citizens of the world. what gives you a right to draw lines?
Because my forefathers chose to, and had the power to do so.
It is the nature man and socialization.
We gather in neighborhoods and we like to hoard things.
People who crave power will always dominate the meek.
I guess you don't have a fence around your back yard.
I do. It helps deter criminals, and keeps stray kids from drowning in my swimming pool.
Without control of our border, America will gradually sink into an average country, instead of leading the world towards a desired goal.

'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by RAZD, posted 02-17-2007 9:14 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-17-2007 10:13 AM ThingsChange has not replied
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 02-17-2007 11:12 AM ThingsChange has not replied
 Message 115 by RAZD, posted 02-17-2007 11:51 AM ThingsChange has not replied
 Message 117 by jar, posted 02-17-2007 3:20 PM ThingsChange has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 113 of 130 (385816)
02-17-2007 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by ThingsChange
02-17-2007 9:38 AM


Re: Check out the subsequent generations
Without control of our border, America will gradually sink into an average country, instead of leading the world towards a desired goal.
what exactly is that desired goal?
cause, as i see it, the only goals we have are profit, celebrity, ignorance, and war. we're completely unconcerned with the rights of others; we're completely unconcerned with anything but american idol and making more money. if these are the goals you want us to lead the world toward, i'd say the world is better off without us.
we say that we want to lead the world to protect human rights and free trade and whatever. but we refuse every opportunity to defend human rights that doesn't stand to make us money. and we do fight for free trade, but it's not really free trade. poor people who cannot fight for the equal contract they deserve do not have free trade with big american companies. they can't. truly free trade will be fair trade.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ThingsChange, posted 02-17-2007 9:38 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 114 of 130 (385822)
02-17-2007 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by ThingsChange
02-17-2007 9:38 AM


Re: Check out the subsequent generations
ThingsChange writes:
Without control of our border, America will gradually sink into an average country, instead of leading the world towards a desired goal.
Becoming an average country is something that America should aspire to. You can't lead until you catch up.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 115 of 130 (385825)
02-17-2007 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by ThingsChange
02-17-2007 9:38 AM


Re: Check out the subsequent generations
I guess you don't have a fence around your back yard.
I do. It helps deter criminals, and keeps stray kids from drowning in my swimming pool.
Thus you would keep your forefathers out. You probably lock your doors too. I don't, nor do I have fences. Strangely I am not overwhelmed by criminals and children with a death wish.
Without control of our border, America will gradually sink into an average country, instead of leading the world towards a desired goal.
The problem is not people who want to work and contribute to that America.
It is the nature man and socialization.
We gather in neighborhoods and we like to hoard things.
People who crave power will always dominate the meek.
It is the nature of selfish people. You must include yourself, if you make this a blanket statement.
You still did not answer the question though -- what gives you the right to draw lines? Your accident of birth is not a right. Having a "power" to drive off others is not a right.
Try thinking beyond your nose.
Enjoy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ThingsChange, posted 02-17-2007 9:38 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 130 (385842)
02-17-2007 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
02-11-2007 6:53 PM


I think we should shut the borders, this country is turning in to a wasteland... Sick of all the 3rd world violence, and disease.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-11-2007 6:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-17-2007 10:47 PM nyenye has replied
 Message 122 by nator, posted 02-18-2007 7:34 AM nyenye has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 117 of 130 (385844)
02-17-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by ThingsChange
02-17-2007 9:38 AM


Re: Check out the subsequent generations
Without control of our border, America will gradually sink into an average country, instead of leading the world towards a desired goal.
How do you identify who should be here?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ThingsChange, posted 02-17-2007 9:38 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 118 of 130 (385900)
02-17-2007 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by nyenye
02-17-2007 2:17 PM


you're right. i much prefer the first world violence of imperialism, preemptive war, genocide, child molestation, domestic abuse, serial murder, hate crimes, corporate abuse, minimum wage jobs. not to mention those first world diseases like aids, cancer, obesity, tb, flu, heart disease, alcoholism, drug abuse, herpes.
you know what. next time you decide to talk about how diseased and violent third world people are, you should... i dunno. think.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by nyenye, posted 02-17-2007 2:17 PM nyenye has replied

Replies to this message:
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nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 130 (385910)
02-18-2007 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by macaroniandcheese
02-17-2007 10:47 PM


Sorry to Burst your "bubble" but these are my views on what I think. I am not as... "accepting" as you. I do THINK as well as see what is going on around me. It's sad, and sickening.... I do not think immigration is right, especially since these people are not checked for disease, at the borders. With these 7,000 Iraqi refugees coming here, God only knows what will happen. I will not take sympathy for anyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-17-2007 10:47 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Lithodid-Man, posted 02-18-2007 4:47 AM nyenye has not replied
 Message 123 by RAZD, posted 02-18-2007 9:03 AM nyenye has replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 120 of 130 (385913)
02-18-2007 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by nyenye
02-18-2007 1:08 AM


If only...
Well, I certainly wish the aboriginal inhabitants of this country had taken your viewpoint! Disease ridden criminals coming in by the boatload in their day. So freaking stupid they couldn't even grow their own food.
This is one of the best anti-immigration songs I know:
Now that your big eyes have finally opened
Now that you’re wondering how must they feel
Meaning them that you’ve chased across America’s movie screens
Now that you’re wondering how can it be real
That the ones you called noble, colorful and proud
In your school propaganda
They starve in their splendor
You’ve asked for my comment
I simply will render
My country ”tis of thy people you’re dying
Now that the longhouses breed superstition
You force us to send our toddlers away
To your schools where they’re taught to despise their traditions
Forbid them their languages then further say
That American history really began
when Columbus set sail
out of Europe and stress
That the nation of leeches that’s conquered this land
Are the biggest and bravest and boldest and best
Yet where in the history books is tale
Of the genocide basic to this country’s birth
Of the preachers who lied
How the Bill of Rights failed
How a nation of patriots returned to their earth
And where will it tell
of the Liberty Bell
As it rang with a thud
Over the kilns of mud
And the brave Uncle Sam in Alaska this year
My country ”tis of thy people you’re dying
Hear how the bargain was made for the West
With her shivering children in zero degrees
Blankets for your land so the treaties attest
Oh well blankets for land is a bargain indeed
And the blankets were those Uncle Sam had collected
From small pox diseased
Dying soldiers that day
And the tribes were wiped out and the history books censored
A hundred years of your statesmen have felt it’s better this way
Yet a few of the conquered have somehow survived
Their blood runs the redder though genes have been paled
From Grand Canyon’s caverns to craven sad hills
The wounded, the losers, the robbed sing their tale
From Los Angeles county
To upstate New York
The white nation fattens while others grow lean
Oh the tricked and evicted they know what I mean
My country ”tis of thy people you’re dying
The past it just crumbled the future just threatens
Our lifeblood shut up in your chemical tanks
And now here you come bill of sale in your hands
And surprise
in your eyes
For our lacking of thanks
For the blessings of civilization you brought us
The lessons you’ve taught us
The ruin you wrought us
Oh see what our faith in America’s bought us
My country ”tis of thy people you’re dying
Now that the pride of the sires receives charity
Now that we’re harmless and safe behind laws
Now that my life’s to be known as you heritage
Now that even the graves have been robbed
Now that our own chosen way is a novelty
Hands on our hearts
We salute you your victory
Choke on your blue white and scarlet hypocrisy
Pitying the blindness that you never seen
That the eagles of war whose wings lent you glory
They were never no more than carrion crows
Pushed the wren from theirs nests
Stole their eggs
Changed their story
The mocking bird sings it
It’s all that she knows
Ah what can I do
Say a powerless few
With a lump in your throat
And a tear in your eye
Can’t you see that their poverty’s profiting you
My country ”tis of thy people you’re dying
- Buffy Sainte-Marie, "My country 'Tis of thy People"

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
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