Fundamentalism versus Critical Thinking

I was about to issue an Adminnemooseus alert about an atheism topic derailment about to happen, then I decided it actually was on topic (of course, I may be wrong, and have been right at the first impression). It also seems to be a pretty good quality discussion (POTM's lurking here somewhere?).Adminnemooseus is getting so wishy-washy that he now needs the non-admin mode to post for him.Moose

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Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

I think pretty much everything is orientated around the "critical thinking" theme in relation to religion, even if we have strayed a bit from fundamentalism. I just put the link to Wiki in because there are problems with the definition(s) of atheism, with many people taking it to mean a "there cannot be Gods" attitude, which is the kind of statement that many of us wouldn't like to be associated with (Richard Dawkins, for example, included).Mainly, Minnemooseus, I wanted to make the controversial claim that critical thinking in relation to religion, fundamentalist or otherwise, should lead to weak atheism or agnosticism, and see what reactions that would bring.If Phat's happy with the way his thread's going, then I think it's all fine so far!

If "avoid dealing with reality" you mean those fundamentalists that, in spite of the evidence to the contrary, believe the earth was created in seven days, or that there was a global flood and Noah herded two of every animal onto an arc, then yes, I agree with you. Of course it would. Those that pray to their Lord for what appear to me to be superficial or trivial matters, such as "stubbing one's toe", would be strange.But what if a worshipper, raised in the climate of their religion and believed in the power of prayer, didn't stub their toe? rather they lost their wife or husband? daughter or son? a family member or friend very dear to them?They are under excessive stress, pain and suffering. Their head throbs and heart aches. They pray to whomever they pray to to relieve some of the pain. Regardless if they believe their prayers are answered or heard, the fact is when they cite what troubles them, they are often using a form of intropection. They come to better understand themselves and how they feel. This may very well calm them and give them some sort of solace; just a moment's peace.Are we to tell them that they should "be more independent"? To "stop making excuses and avoid dealing with reality"?

most people are born into it, are you talking about those who come into belief later in life?
i'd say they have a wish to believe, a belief not based on thought, but a belief based on want and fear of death or desire for something to believe in.if anything jesus brought a good message and the fellowship of other christians is nicewhat evidence do you mean phat? the existance of people and places in the bible?
you do know you can't argue that because somewhere or someone is found to have existed that everything about them is trueIMO criticaly thinking about beliefs and the bible itself, fundie or not will break down your belief, theres too much cognitive dissesense to make it all work as many people are taught to believe

i agree with this, in all honesty, if you really do think about it, what makes one religion right over another? why is christianity right over say islam?they both make claims of authority, but neither can be shown to be positivly right on everything.i know many people make the argument that the bible gives "prophecies" that have been shown to have happened.
the problem is so has all the other ones, and none of them have been right, unless you say twist the wording to mean what you want it toinconsistenticy is really what makes me skeptical of any religious text, the fact that most of the followers try to construct a mythology that isn't even part of the book makes me question the people even understand their own beliefs

No, we are not to tell them that.However, it seems that there is a strong desire among the devout to protect their belief at such times as this. It is almost seems more important to them than anything else.Religion also seems to sometimes enforce the glorification of ignorance, helplessness and weakness. "It's God's way, and we are not to understand". "God will take care of us". "It's all part of God's plan".Religion, it seems to me, all seems to come down to caveman fear.Fear of the unknown, fear of being at the mercy of random and uncontrollable events, and fear that we are on our own and what me make of our lives is, in part, up to us.Religion is a way to pass the buck on that responsibility and to avoid having to face the reality that bad/good shit happens and it's nobody's fault/plan. IOW, that there is no all-powerful entity "in control" out there.What is a more effective way to think; to believe a comfortable lie or to realize an uncomfortable reality?

What do you think deep down in your heart nator?
Things happen for no reason?Please, give an honest straight up answer.

Good work, I will only add that not all religious people can be classified as 'strong' theists either. Many who claim theism do little or nothing in their lives that shows that they really believe. I have been going for some cross-analogies all along, yes. Again, a pre-arranged marriage doesn't have to be a failure.

We are always at the mercy of random and uncontrollable events! And, most religions tell us that what we make of our lives is up to us, not in part, but in entirity. What's the difference? Bad/good shit always happens, and we have to deal with it whether we think there is a 'plan' or not. Seriously, if my car dies on a lonely stretch of raod, do you think I am going to blame the devil, or console myself that this is part of God's plan? Even if I did, so what? I still have to get out and find a phone and a tow truck. I am not sure how much more 'real' I can act in that situation. You need to prove that something is a lie, of course.. and then, you need to prove that the 'lie' is comfortable. Do you think life would not be a tiny bit more comfortable for me if I believed that I didn't have to fast, or go to church, or explain my beliefs to others?

What do you mean "unchecked skepticism"? Are you saying that there is a certain point at which people should just be willing to accept something as truth and believe it when someone else tells it to them? That's because the people "like [you] who are attached to [your] beliefs" are people who gain power from "checked skepticism." They are delivered control in the form of being able to tell people things that they will accept without question or reason to disbelieve. Preachers, pastors, popes, etc. all have somewhat of a control over people like you who believe what they tell you to believe. Because you chuck your skepticism at the church door, when they tell you something, you will believe it. This means that their beliefs/interpretations of whatever religious text you happen to read at your place of worship will be delivered to you and imprinted on your mind. When you "spread the word," you will be spreading their word.When religious figures teach about the evils of things children learn in school, they do so because they dislike critical thinkers. For each critical thinker that is added, a non-skeptic that is willing to accept the garbage these leaders spoon feed to their flocks is removed. In the numbers of people you can sway to your opinion is your power. The religious leaders live on this power, and indeed it is all they have. If everyone critically thought of the junk they were taught in church, there wouldn't be any more people in church, the leaders would be without people, they would be without power, and above all they would be without money.The goal of fundamentilist leaders is to further themselves and their own agendas, and until you pick your skepticism up off the front lawn and put it back in your head, you will be willing to believe what they tell you--albeit it to a point--and to that point they will have power over what you think, how you act, and what you tell others--who might consider comming in to check things out and maybe make a $$$ offer to the colection place . These are the points I was talking about. You are willing to take in their slop to a certain point. That "point" has been brainwashed into you, and their greatest fear is that you will start to think critically of the situation and realize that. So, they preach that schools and colleges are evil and ruining the youth. Mentally thin individuals are willing to believe it and send their children to a nice private school where they can be tought restricted thinking while being brainwashed to pre-believe everything the church--generally connected to the school building--tells them.Anway, that's my rant. Off to class.J0N1CU5 M4X1MU5_____________________________________ Edited by Jonicus Maximus, : Title :-)

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What do you think deep down in your heart nator?
Things happen for no reason?

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Please, give an honest straight up answer.

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If you are asking me if I think that everyting that happens is uncaused, then no.For example, the reason a person broke their leg is becasue they took a bad tumble while skiing and the physics of the event resulted in a broken bone. They might also have been lax in maintaining their equipment, or had recently gotten over being ill so were not in the best physical shape, or they might have been on a trail that was too difficult for them, etc. etc.However, if you are asking me if I think that the reason this person broke their leg is so they had to go to the hospital and meet a doctor who would later introduce them to a person who's sibling turned out to be the person they married, and it's all becasue some supernatural entity has willed it to happen that way?Nope.Stuff just happens.

The day that I got saved, there was an undeniable change. Emotionally, mentally, physically I felt completely different. It was a catharsis. My habits changed. My will and emotions changed. I was happier. I was excited.These changes were ongoing. They lasted for at least a year. Other changes have been permanent. I am still the same jerk in many ways, but I have also been aware of a presence that stays with me.I believe that Jesus is alive and that the Holy Spirit is with me always. Critically and empirically I cannot explain it but it makes the belief no less real to me. There are some who know me who would also testify to such a presence. I am not suggesting exclusivity nor would I want to be exclusive. If you knew me well, I would welcome your critical analysis, but seeing as how you don't know me well, I cannot say much more about it to you.I will say that you have always been pragmatic and empirical in matters pertaining to faith, DG. You know well enough through your online gaming what the imagination of man is capable of.You have heard the numerous atheist fallacies arguments and you have seen many a fundy fall on their face trying to defend what is considered an irrational belief system. The fundamentals of faith and the experiences that anyone has are fair game for critical thinking, but the beliefs that we cling to are clung to for a reason.Perhaps I am like a child who needs his Teddy Bear, but I refuse to let go of a relationship with a God whom I perceive to be alive. I can well examine why I feel this way, but I won't allow the rationality of critical thought turn me into an agnostic. Perhaps I am willfully ignorant in this regard.

Thats a good rant, Jon! One thing I will say in my defense, however, is that my beliefs stem from personal experience more than the indoctrination and dogma that came with it. Jesus is a source of great comfort to me, whether or not you think that he is an internal imagination within me or not.I am not going to abandon my beliefs simply because a bunch of critical thinkers want to persuade me to step out of the dark ages and trot over to Sir. Humphrey Davies house to inhale laughing gas and think about the universe!I am skeptical of Pastors, Popes, and Preachers. I realize that hucksters exist in any field of study.I will not abandon the God in my heart because I believe that He lives...regardless of whether or not I died or whether a bunch of smarmy intellectuals came up with another grand proof that invalidated the Gospels or the Exodus or the flippin Flood. I dont need external proof. To deny God would be like you denying your Mother.

This goes both ways. Nobody has conclusively proved that any major belief on this planet is a lie. They never will.Reality is at best agnosticism, Schraff. You cannot prove anything else.

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We are always at the mercy of random and uncontrollable events!

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Not true. Everything that happens in the universe is under God's control, He being Omnipotent and all. Sometimes, though, the Devil or demons control certain things and people.At least, that's what most of the religious people have told me is the case over the years.

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And, most religions tell us that what we make of our lives is up to us, not in part, but in entirity.

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Not according to most religious people I've interacted with. Most of them say that how we should live is up to God, not up to us. And it is "big-headed" for humans to rely on our own knowledge and wisdom, and we should give over our lives to Jesus.

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What's the difference?

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The difference is in actions taken.Religious people who believe that God heals people through prayer have let their child die instead of allowing them to have life saving medical help. Instead of working hard to preserve the environment, some religious people (in high places) justify raping and laying waste to nature because they believe that the End is Near. I could go on, but I think you get my gist.

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Bad/good shit always happens, and we have to deal with it whether we think there is a 'plan' or not.

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But HOW we deal with that shit is important, and too often religion allows people to not have to deal with reality. They tend to muck it up for the rest of us who DO live in reality.

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Seriously, if my car dies on a lonely stretch of raod, do you think I am going to blame the devil, or console myself that this is part of God's plan? Even if I did, so what? I still have to get out and find a phone and a tow truck. I am not sure how much more 'real' I can act in that situation.

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Sure, that's one example that isn't too different in how we might imagine the two mindsets to act. But, as I stated above, the religious mindset has influenced our president to "stay the course" in Iraq becasue he can very easily simply deny reality.

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You need to prove that something is a lie, of course.

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No I don't. You folks with faith are the one making the claim that the supernatural exists and that it has effects in the natural world.

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and then, you need to prove that the 'lie' is comfortable. Do you think life would not be a tiny bit more comfortable for me if I believed that I didn't have to fast, or go to church, or explain my beliefs to others?

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Do you think that your life would be a "teeny" bit less comfortable to you if you gave up the belief that God loves you or that heaven exists and that when you and your loved ones die, that you don't go anywhere at all? You just die, and that's the end?