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Author Topic:   Military Chaplains are being censored.
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5931 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 46 of 48 (386850)
02-24-2007 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
02-21-2007 1:22 PM


Re: Church/State separation?
Phat writes:
Thats ridiculous!
No it isn't. If I was on death row, I'd wouldn't want to hear some fairy tales about going to live on clouds with daddy and mommy. I want to hear the truth, however cold and bleak it may be.
To quote Bertrand Russell:
quote:
People will tell us that without the consolations of religion they would be intolerably unhappy. So far as this is true, it is a coward's argument. Nobody but a coward would consciously choose to live in a fool's paradise. When a man suspects his wife of infidelity, he is not thought the better of for shutting his eyes to the evidence. And I cannot see why ignoring evidence should be contemptible in one case and admirable in the other.
I completely agree with this. No doubt prisoners were informed of the terrorist attacks of September 11. This would have depressed many of them, and for the rest it would hardly of been good news, but it was true, and truth trumps wishful thinking.
If I was on death row, I'd rather not be consoled with promises of my "light of life" reigniting stronger somewhere else, but to be reminded of how bright it once shone.

"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 02-21-2007 1:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 02-24-2007 8:37 AM Doddy has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 48 (386856)
02-24-2007 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Doddy
02-24-2007 6:32 AM


Re: Church/State separation?
So what you are saying is that everyone under the care of the State should be allowed to have a counselor...be they faith based or be they reality-based in context of your belief. Am I right?
This brings up a point made earlier about how a good chaplain should be sensitive to differing religions since the government cannot provide every denomination a chaplain. A good Chaplain should be ecumenical and inclusive.
This brings up the question of whether a counselor trained in Faith could be a secular philosopher should the situation warrant it.
The issue now becomes: If Government organizations are allowed to have faith based counselors, should they either train these people to be secular humanist counselors as well or do we need to consider the needs of our atheist (humanist..non-religious) clients as well?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Doddy, posted 02-24-2007 6:32 AM Doddy has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 48 (386891)
02-24-2007 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Jaderis
02-22-2007 11:21 PM


Re: Military chaplains
The issue that Klingenschmitt was dismissed for poor job performance and a history of disobeying direct orders. He is making it into a personal martyrdom story and people like you are gobbling it up because it is "proof" of your fictional "War on Christians."
"Who's in charge during worship, the Commanding Officer or the Chaplain? In the military, one man's "religious diversity" is another man's "religious divisiveness." So it's logically impossible to celebrate diversity and punish divisiveness at the same time...we must choose one or the other. As a chaplain, I advocated for religious diversity, but my commanding officer punished religious divisiveness. Perhaps the tension was inherent in our different roles and responsibilities. But my CO crossed the line when he punished me for quoting the "divisive" scripture John 3:36 during a sermon, in the base chapel, at an optionally-attended worship service, advertised as a Christian memorial service, honoring the Christian faith of my deceased Sailor who was a member of my flock. No. Federal Law gives the Chaplain, not the CO, full authority over worship inside the chapel, period. Does anybody disagree? See Ridgon vs. Perry, Title 10 Section 6031, Lee vs. Weisman, Article VI religious test for office, First Amendment, etc." -Chaplain Gordon Klingenschmitt
The issue is that he abused his position as chaplain and went against the code of ethics for chaplains because he felt he had the right to put his own religion on a pedastal and by doing so alienated over a quarter of the sailors on his ship.
Sounds like your word against his at this point. Aside from which, Klingenschmidt is a small beach head in a sea of this controversy.
What do you think would have happened if the chaplain was a Muslim and decided to preach about "Allah's wrath against unbelievers" at a funeral, even if it was a Muslim sailor's funeral?
The funeral procession was for a Christian sailor, inside the chapel. Any person of any faith would like for a member of their faith to preside in prayer. But something tells me you wouldn't cry foul ball if it was any one other than a Christian. Interestingly, that's how it often works.
What if the same preacher had had multiple complaints lodged against him?
Then you address them. If the complaint was relevant to the Instruction, then you proceed accordingly.
What if he had disobeyed direct orders? He would have been fired and rightly so.
Then you address it the same way. If the direct order entailed anything contrary to the man's faith. Secondly, since when are you in favor of following direct orders, such as the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy drafted by the Clinton administration? So much for following orders. If something stinks, you speak up. You think the DADT policy is crap and you have every right to defend that, just as military chaplains do not need to be barred from carrying out a service in the name of Jesus as the behest of the deceased prior to death. Scroll down and click on the video link
On that note, who are these "special interest groups?" Can you name one group that has spoken out against the right of chaplains to pray in the name of Jesus during worship services or private counsel with those that share their faith? Do you have any evidence that chaplains are denied the right to pray in the name of Jesus during worship services or private counsel with those that share their faith?
Does anyone have any proof otherwise? Again, this is just one small incident, just the most prominent.
You mentioned earlier that every soldier, sailor, marine and airman had the right to a chaplain who understood or represented them (or something to that effect). Well, that is not always possible which is why chaplains have to be able to counsel anyone from any faith without alienating them or acting like a superior asshole. Unfortunately, Klingenschmitt did not fit that job description and he was fired. Had he been an honest man he would have resigned knowing that he could not compromise.
If a serviceman wishes to speak to them about some hard times they are going through, chaplains are required to be impartial and not to proselytize. That's fine. No argument there. The issue is that what it is going on is that the continued secularization of everything is trying to turn military chaplains in to an amorphous blob of ambiguity. It was Christians who began the entire chaplain corp and they shouldn't be pushed out when we agreed to let other faiths in. We want all faiths to join in the chaplain corp, but not at the risk of us all being assimilated into one unidentifiable blob. We need Christian chaplains, Jewish chaplains, Muslim chaplians, we have Wiccan chaplains. Let it be so. But don't undercut their faith by forcing them not to speak about key elements of their faith at a funeral honoring the dead's faith.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Jaderis, posted 02-22-2007 11:21 PM Jaderis has not replied

  
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