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Author Topic:   Is evolution of mammals finished?
RAZD
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Message 87 of 213 (386889)
02-24-2007 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by MartinV
02-24-2007 11:33 AM


arbitrary classifications
They didn't disappeared. As our knowledge increase we reclassify some organisms. ... Classification is no way some human invention, ...

You contradict yourself: if they were non-arbitrary there would be no re-drawing of the lines.

Classification is arbitrary. What {groups} are used is arbitrary, what names they are given is arbitrary.

What is not arbitrary is the hierarchy of relationships based on common ancestor populations, but every classification before and after speciation branches is totally arbitrary on where the lines are drawn.

So there is no reason to doubt that wolfs, giraffes, beasts(carnivora), rodents and whales exist ...

But the names we give them and where we draw the lines on the tree of life are arbitrary.

Classifications are useful for discussions, but the world\universe does not rely on them for the existence or behavior of life.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by MartinV, posted 02-24-2007 11:33 AM MartinV has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by MartinV, posted 02-24-2007 3:22 PM RAZD has responded

RAZD
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Posts: 19839
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 91 of 213 (386902)
02-24-2007 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by MartinV
02-24-2007 3:22 PM


Re: arbitrary classifications and niche knocks
Of course they exist. Even animals recognise them in order to mate themselves, to recognise what to hunt and what to avoid. It's a weird opinion that cats learn to avoid german shepard, bulterier, canis lupus etc and ...

They recognize species {in-group) and {out-group}. That's all that is required to exist, survive and breed. They would also learn to be wary of lynx and bobcat and mink.

Cats (and other animals) learn by experience. Unfamiliar type animals are treated with wary skepticism regardless of taxon group they come from. Parents (when around) pass experience to offspring. Learning works both ways: cats raised with dogs are not wary of dogs. That cats can peacefully coexist with dogs disproves your assertion.

They also certainly do not recognize {mammal} as a group - or any other taxon division - because it is an arbitrary group based on one of many common ancestors.

There is no classification beyond species that is NOT arbitrary on where the lines are drawn for {part of group} vs {not part of group}.

Message 89
It depends what exactly you remove. If you remove 75% animals from each species I would say nothing happens - remaining individuals will geometrically fill niches.

Seeing as the fossil evidence is that it was 75% of the species this does not address the real issue but is a non sequitur.

It also neglects the issue of those remaining 25% being isolated in two or more pockets of their former range, now in reproductive isolation. This would allow each sub-population to evolve differently as there would no longer be gene flow between the groups. Thus 75% reduction of each species could lead to massive opportunity for change that would not exist before.

Message 89
That's the question. Why crocodiles and sharks didn't occupy emptied niches?

Opportunity. Crocs and sharks did diversify as well, they just didn't compete sufficiently with whale ancestors to prevent their diversification. There was sufficient opportunity for whale ancestors to survive, breed and diversify.

Why after Ambulocetus left estuaries no other mammals entered it again?

Because they did not leave it all at once but in stages. As each stage was taken there was only PART of the "niche" to fill and the opportunities of all the competing species to take bits and pieces along the way means that no complete "niche" was left.

There are also lots of mammals that live in estuary environments, so this "niche" is not left empty nor vacant nor bereft of mammals.

You keep thinking that the niche defines the species. It's the other way around. As the species changes the niche changes with it because it is defined by the species.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : subtitle


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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 19839
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 99 of 213 (387716)
03-02-2007 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Wounded King
03-02-2007 2:46 AM


Re: Mobbing
You see kingbirds attacking crows and crows attacking raptors. Sometimes just one, sometimes two or three at a time.

You don't see all birds engaged in this kind of behavior, rather a few species do, and only in certain instances.

You also see bluejays rasing a ruckus around a raptor, but NOT attacking it.

Without a lot more in depth behavioural study, ideally a generational one allowing something along the lines of a qtl analysis,

Exactly. And painting all bird species for the behavior of some - as MartinV has done - is also unrealistic and misrepresenetative of the nature of things.

Enjoy.


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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 19839
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 113 of 213 (387808)
03-02-2007 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Omnivorous
03-02-2007 4:27 PM


Re: Mobbing
I've also been attacked by female tree swallow that had taken over a bluebird house. Dive bombing at the head. I've also seen this behavior relative to cats. Hummingbirds can be devastating, quick and sharp.

Fun in the field eh?


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19839
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 134 of 213 (389081)
03-10-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by MartinV
03-05-2007 3:27 PM


Re: Mobbing
We discussed the issue more in details there. So it is not necessary to discuss it here in another examples.

The fact is that your position was refuted on the other thread, so failing to link to it shows you don't want that known.

Not that you admit it to yourself.

Enjoy.


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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by MartinV, posted 03-05-2007 3:27 PM MartinV has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19839
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 135 of 213 (389082)
03-10-2007 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by MartinV
03-09-2007 1:42 PM


Re: Marine K-T extinctions and opportunity
Of course they are same. Broom and Davison state that evolution is over.

Thus when we see evolution happening, this refutes both of them.

Enjoy.


Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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