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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Iraq needed Saddam? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
The following message was originally here at the "Lie after Lie (Mother Jones - The Bush War Timeline" topic. It was a reply to a Percy message just upthread. I'll also quote the two there replies to the message.
Minnemooseus writes: Percy writes: ...Saddam Hussein *was* a ruthless dictator and a destabilizing force in the Middle East, While Saddam definitely was excessive and criminal in his actions, wasn't he actually a stabilizing force in the Middle East? I personally suspect that a more moderate, but perhaps still rather ruthless version of Saddam is what Iraq needed and needs. What is going to be put into place, that will work better? I have no idea. And, of course, there is always the ugly question of to what degree the United States were significant contributers to Saddam's excesses? Remember that photo of buddy-buddy Saddam and Donald Rumsfeld. Moose The replies:
Percy, in message 28 writes: Minnemooseus writes: While Saddam definitely was excessive and criminal in his actions, wasn't he actually a stabilizing force in the Middle East? That's a good point post-Kuwait, leaving even less justification for the Bush war. What a waste. It is so sad. --Percy Archer Opterix, in message 29 writes: While Saddam definitely was excessive and criminal in his actions, wasn't he actually a stabilizing force in the Middle East? Of course. Just look at all those bodies they pull out of his mass graves. Page Not Found | U.S. Agency for International Development It's a very stabilized condition. Moose Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
I was actually thinking about starting a new topic with some approximation of my message 1 content. Then that other topic came to life, and I put the material in there instead.
Part of my first message that wasn't quoted by the others:
Minnemooseus writes: I personally suspect that a more moderate, but perhaps still rather ruthless version of Saddam is what Iraq needed and needs. What is going to be put into place, that will work better? I have no idea. I'm not denying that Saddam was a very bad person. The question is, does Iraq need a "bad" (but not "very bad") person in order to function? Is Iraq now looking at decades of civil war, perhaps until a neo-Saddam finally takes charge? Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
I thought this topic deserved a revival and a re-read. Much has been said upthread, and I have little to add.
I will ask the question "What if Saddam had voluntarily abdicated and gone into exile"? I think there would have been a civil war, much like what the U.S. is currently trying to contain. Moose Added by edit (bare Washington Post link not directly related to topic (or is it?)):
A Crude Case For War? (Iraq war is for oil?) Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Well, 7 years have passed since I started this topic, and Iraq seems to still be a mess.
But really what caused the bump is my recollection of Quetzal having commented on the Ukraine in this topic.
Quetzal writes: I would say that all that is required to show the fallacious nature of this premise is to discover whether there are any countries which, having thrown off a tradition of strongman-type central authority have managed, somehow, to “make it” in its absence. In that vein, I’d like to present one example: Ukraine. Ukraine is an interesting case. Since around 988 (Vladimir I, King of Kiev and the Rus), it has been variously under one monarch, dictator, or foreign domination or the other. More recently it was one of the main republics under the Soviet Union. Unlike many other East European countries, it did not have the Soviet system imposed on it. It was, rather, one of the countries that invented it. For the last five hundred years or so, it had no tradition of nationhood as such (parts of modern Ukraine belonged variously to Poland, Russia, Romania, etc). It would seem, under the circumstances, to be an unlikely candidate for democracy. And yet, after a somewhat rocky start, democracy has taken hold there. In spite of serious ethnic/cultural differences (the western half of the country - much of it formerly Polish and speaking Ukrainian - wishes to become westernized, whereas the eastern half of the country - much of it formerly Russian and speaking Russian - wishes to rejoin the Russian Federation). One of the first post-independence presidents, Leonid Kuchma, made the mistake of thinking his countrymen would tolerate a new dictator, and attempted to emulate Vladimir Putin of Russia (or possibly, in his heart of hearts, Alexander Lukashenko, the absolute dictator of Belarus). The people, with absolutely NO tradition of democracy, rose up against him in the Orange Revolution. He and his corrupt cronies were ousted - peacefully, no less - and democracy restored. Whether it will last is another story. Now the obvious counter to this is that the nation had no tradition of violence and thus an analogy to the Middle East is invalid. This is untrue. Ukraine was one of the hearts of the anti-Bolshevik counter revolution (used to be known as White Russia). The Kosacki constantly fought either against or for the central authorities. Stalin, because of widespread anti-Soviet sentiment, conducted a virtual campaign of genocide against ethnic Ukrainians in an effort to retain control. Even today, the amount of distrust and even occasional naked hatred between western Ukrainians and eastern Ukrainians is palpable. And yet . Quetzal does not have his reply notification turned on, so he'll probably never see this. MooseProfessor, geology, Whatsamatta U Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith "Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
I got to this page, but the story is at a lot of other pages also.
quote: quote: Above bolding as at source. When Glenn Beck is the voice of sanity of the conservative movement... MooseProfessor, geology, Whatsamatta U Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith "Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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I should have mentioned this in my previous message:
Poll: Should U.S. etc. go to war against Iraq It only went 14 messages. Percy said at message 3:
Percy writes: As far as I'm concerned, when we march into Iraq it had better damn well be because the weapons inspections have turned up incontrovertible evidence of significant caches of weapons of mass destruction. Keeping a military force in the Gulf is very expensive, but that doesn't justify this apparent rush to war. I couldn't bring myself to vote for either presidential candidate in the last election, but if Bush starts this war with insufficient provocation then I'll have to give his opponent serious consideration in the next election. The big danger we face is enlarging the population is displaced Moslems with a grudge against the US. As wrong as the 9/11 terrorists were, the lesson for us is to work at become less hated around the world. That doesn't mean not hunting down Al Queda, but it definitely means not doing what Bush seems to be doing now. MooseProfessor, geology, Whatsamatta U Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith "Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
That guy that Trump killed--Soleimani and that other Iraqi guy...were they the authority in Iraq? If so, we seem to have shot ourselves in the foot--again. They were Iranians, but the killings were done in Iraq. Moose
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