Limits on Abortion

Why should a rape victim get special treatment?

I think the usual argument is that she didn't consent to sex, and therefore shouldn't be held liable for the child. But I don't want to debate that here. The fact is, some people think abortion should be illegal for everyone except rape victims. What I want to do in this thread is see just what it would look like if such legislation were passed.

Doctors would probably be legally enjoined from performing elective abortions without a notarized copy of the police rape report; as a result, hardly any victim of rape would receive an abortion, and a considerable number of persons who had elected to have abortions would probably be imprisoned for filing a false police report. Rather than be bogged down by chasing down rapes that they suspected were fabricated, police would probably investigate rape less than they already do now. Many, many more rapists would get away with their crimes.That's what I think it would look like - predictably, women would bear the vast majority of the costs and get nothing in return.

Much of the time a mother finds out about an ectopic pregnancy when she begins to feel intense pain, and unbeknownst to her, internal bleeding. Since that can kill her and the child without immediate intervention, I would consider that a high probability. It all depends on the circumstances. Should they try everything in their power to save both lives? Yes, of course. But you asked if there was any justification for abortion. This is the only one I could think of because baby will die without mother, but mother can live without baby at this stage of gestation.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

What - really - is rape? One could argue that - in an unwanted pregnancy - the fetus is forcing an unwanted sexual relationship on a woman.Just a different perspective.

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What I really want to know is what people who would make abortion the crime of premeditated murder think this would look like in practice.For example, let's say that an 13 year old girl is made pregnant because her father has been molesting her.Her mother finds out about it and takes her to a doctor to get a secret abortion.First of all, are there cameras or informants inside the clinic to catch the people planning the abortion? Are there law enforcement officers posing as doctors in sting operations in order to catch people trying to get abortions?Now, let's say that the girl gets the abortion, but their medical records are searched by the government and they are found out.Is the girl going to be tried for first degree (premeditated) murder and be locked up for life? Is her mother going to also be tried for being an accesory to murder, and also go to prison? What about the doctor and the rest of the medical staff?

Thanks for taking the time to respond.So, would abortions be prescribed on a case by case basis? As far as I know, there's no single disease/abnormality/complication that will result in the death of both mother and child 100% of the time, so we can't just say, anybody with X can get an abortion. It's more subjective than that. Would individual doctors decide whether or not their patients should have abortions? What kind of system would be put into play by you?

considering that 9 out of 10 women who are raped never report it, this is a terrible policy. i agree. if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have grown a vagina.

this is not the thread to discuss the justifications of abortion.also, your personal definition of rape doesn't matter. the legal definition of rape as forced sexual relations does. i've never heard of a woman being literally fucked by her baby. a procreative relationship=/=a sexual relationship.also, i noticed your definition doesn't allow for men being raped.

i think it is very important to discuss the legal ramifications of this.so in this scenario, we place a traumatized child into a cell with hardened criminals to be further molested and traumatized. how is this justice in any form? is god so callous that he demands this?what will the makeup of our jails be after this?
does this influence rehabilitation programs? if we used religion to make these laws, do we mandate that these murderous women become nuns before we allow them to be paroled?
is this an offense with no chance of parole? even rapists can be released for good behavior. what about baby killers? clearly if we let them go, they're gonna go shoot up our preschools...
do we pass laws which prevent these people from getting financial aid for college like we do for pot heads since they're such dangerous criminals completely devoid of human value?

Ni, you simply make it illegal to conduct the procedure. If any one is discovered then they can go to prison for the proscribed amount of time. I think the best and most practical way to handle it is the same way as law enforcement deals with drugs. They don't nearly go after the user as heavily as they do the provider. But then again what do you think should happen to people who stick coat hangers in there own child's face? What would you do if you saw someone stabbing a newborn in the head with sharp metal object? I think most people who endorse abortions haven't the faintest clue of what it truly entails. Its just been so embedded in the culture that we have dehumanized them and prefer to believe they are really just some amorphous blob of well formed cells. It quite sad really.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

You say that like there's only one way to perform an abortion. Which procedure, specifically, are you going to make illegal? MVA? EVA? Dilation and curettage? Or just writing someone a prescription?What about spontaneous abortions? If a woman falls down the stairs, are you going to prosecute her?And remember it isn't just making the procedure illegal; it's making it illegal except under certain circumstances. Right? How does a doctor or a mother obtain the necessary legal cover to have the abortions your putative law makes exceptions for? Forms? A license? What if medical necessity makes it impossible to wait for such instruments to be procured? Unless you're black. (Different topic.) Says the guy who just referred to the 6 or 7 different medical and surgical abortion techniques (many of which terminate a fetus as a side-effect of another outcome, such as a hysterectomy abortion) as "the procedure." It's pretty clear that you're the one who has no idea how abortions are performed.

Suction aspiration, dilation and curettage, saline amniocentesis, RU 486, dilation and evacuation, intracardiac injection, partial birth abortions, etc. We can start with getting rid of those medieval practices and work our way through all of them. Would you prosecute a women holding a child who accidently fell down the stairs killing the child? Pretty sure I was talking about an premeditated event. Doctors some times have to make life or death decisions rather quickly. Their expertise on the matter would be necessary.

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They don't nearly go after the user as heavily as they do the provider.

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I think most people who endorse abortions haven't the faintest clue of what it truly entails.

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I know all of the procedures, from a coat hanger to a high concentration of saline.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Even the ones that aren't specifically about terminating a fetus? Are you going to ban hysterectomies because of the risk of terminating an unknown, unborn child? I'd prosecute a woman who threw her child down the stairs on purpose. Wouldn't you?But you're begging the question. You've got a woman at the bottom of the stairs who just started a miscarriage. Do you prosecute, or not? If it depends on her intent, how are you going to determine that? Are you going to launch an investigation every time a miscarriage happens? Is the burden of proof on the woman to prove that she really did intend to go through with the pregnancy?Since, under your system, women are forced to give birth - what about a woman who didn't want a pregnancy but never intended to break the law by getting an abortion. If that's the woman at the bottom of the stairs, are you going to use her lack of enthusiasm for forced birth against her in a court of law? Would, say, the woman's past involvement in women's right issues and advocacy for access to abortion, in your mind, constitute proof that her little tumble was premeditated?You're begging the question by talking about intent and premeditation. What I'm asking you is, how do you determine intent when an abortion occurs? But would it be authoritative? I mean, it seems pretty easy for me to imagine "underground" abortionists who asserted, falsely, "life-and-death emergency" in every case of elective abortion.What do you plan to do about those cases? It's hard to imagine you simply taking the doctors word for it if, indeed, you're concerned about all those little innocent lives. (Of course, the alternate explanation is that you aren't concerned, and this is just more of the same slut-shaming that underlies most of the so-called "pro-life" movement. If that's not your aim, feel free to ignore my speculation, but then you've got a glaring contradiction to address.) Tansy? Pennyroyal? Black cohosh? These are just herbs you can go out and pick, some that perhaps have legitimate uses at lower concentrations or different preparations. In your quest to save all those little innocent lives, are you going to ban and destroy these plants?Suppose a woman miscarries. A routine toxin screen shows a slight level of silphium in her blood. Are you going to prosecute her for unborn-icide? What if she simply miscarried for another reason, and was using (or even just handling) silphium for one of the myriad other uses it was known for in the ancient world?

One of the easiest things in the world to find out is whether a woman is pregnant or not. Even those over-the-counter products are extremely accurate. They can sometimes give you a false positive, but as far as I know, a false negative is an impossibility. As far hysterctomies concerned, its a non-issue. If people don't want to have children for whatever reason, I'm all for them exercising their power of "choice" and making sure they don't take out a life over their selfishness.

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Would you prosecute a women holding a child who accidently fell down the stairs killing the child? Pretty sure I was talking about an premeditated event.

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If she threw her child down stairs that wouldn't be an accident now would it? You're grasping at straws. Every one is innocent until proven guilty, Crash. A quick exam of her uterus would show signs of trauma which would inevitably prove or disprove that case. The only time an investigation would be launched is if and when the gynecologist checks the cervix and finds evidence of an abortion. Whenever a miscarriage happens, the first thing they do is give her a gynecological exam to see what the cause is. It wouldn't hardly take any investigation at all. Heaven forbid she be accountable for her own actions. Perish the thought. No. Physical evidence would reveal itself on medical procedure. I'm not saying when ever a woman miscarries that she be under "suspicion." This is apparently your invented fearmongering scenario. Whenever a woman has a miscarriage, she is examined for her own health. While she is being examined, the evidence would stick out like a sore thumb.This is all grasping at straws. Since women don't ordinarily shove hangers in their vagina's causing severe internal damage, that might be a tip-off, don't you think? What other reason would she insert hangers inside of her? Masturbation? Something tells me that just wouldn't be sexually satisfying.

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Their expertise on the matter would be necessary.

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Aren't all forensics introduced in to a court of law on the basis of their authority? You can't exactly get a medical degree out of a Cracker Jack box. I have no doubt that would happen if abortion were ever to become illegal. No doubt, whatsoever. In the event the party is caught, they will stand trial as any one else would and either be convicted or exonerated. Crash, homicide detectives are concerned with all of their victims. It doesn't mean they are going to be 100%. I'm sure there are going to be a few who escape human justice. But just because some get away with it doesn't mean we stop prosecuting murderers because some of them end up getting away. Slut-shaming? Its about killing people, Crash. Murdering them. It has nothing to do with the act of fornication. A married women could get pregnant and want an abortion. Because she's married, you think she's going to get a pass because she's not a "slut?" That's absurd. Its about taking innocent life for selfishness and how calloused society has become about it. That's all its about, that's all it will ever be about. We don't ban cyanide because some people have used it for nefarious purposes, so why should plants be any different? You know, some people have used pens to kill people with. We don't ban writing materials because a handful of people have used it deceitfully. You go where the evidence leads, Crash, like anything else. Some people conducting an autopsy aren't expecting to find a plot for murder when its uncovered. Sometimes that happens. Sometimes detectives suspect homicide when an autopsy rules it out. Your ad hoc scenarios are specious because we would handle like everything else is handled. The mother is innocent until proven guilty. PerioEdited by nemesis_juggernaut, : Edit because full text didn't appear.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis