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Author Topic:   Jesus Tomb Found
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 16 of 242 (387186)
02-26-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
02-26-2007 12:21 PM


Maybe it's something stupid like Ron Wyatt's claim to have found Jesus' blood. I suspect it's not quite that silly, though. But it's the same guy who was behind the "Exodus Decoded" rubbish so expect lots of misrepresentations of the evidence.
i can't even begin to describe how frustrated i am that people are going to not only believe, but BUY this drivel.
this is not a question of religion. people might take it as evidence that jesus as real. people might take it as evidence that christianity is bunk. that's not the issue. the issue is that people are going to take it as evidence, when it will simply be nothing more than distortions, lies, speculation, and mental gymnastics.
it's already known that part of the documentary relies on the james ossuary -- a known forgery. jacobovici admits that the 1970 photos of it in the residence of an infamous forger kind of limit its authenticity as an artifact "discovered" in 1980 -- but purports the pictures were simply printed on old paper. yeah, backflip on that one.


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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 17 of 242 (387199)
02-26-2007 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by joshua221
02-26-2007 6:28 PM


prophex writes:
Please, admit you know nothing, and stop shouting this garbage as if it is worthy of a glance.
You know, you've brought a whole new meaning to quote mining. In my post that you responded to, I specifically said...
quote:
First of all, I'd like to make it clear that I have no position on this whatsoever. I have not seen the documentary and I don't know enough about all this archaeology stuff to make a call.
As you can clearly see, I admitted to my own ignorance. In the next part of my post which you responded to...
quote:
I simply have a rhetorical question. If we can't convince the typical fundamentalist that gravity exists and that it is responsible for planetary motion, how likely is it that we can convince him about this Jesus Tomb thing even if god the father appears in front of the whole world telling it that the site is the authentic Jesus' Tomb and the skeletal remains is that of Jesus and his family?
After rereading my own words, I still don't see how that could have come across as proclaiming myself to know anything.
So, is this one of those prophex rebellious know-it-all moments or have I offended you in the past and now everything I say makes you angry?

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 18 of 242 (387202)
02-26-2007 10:23 PM


Let's hear from the archaeologist who found the ossuaries.
quote:
But Bar-Ilan University Prof. Amos Kloner, the Jerusalem District archeologist who officially oversaw the work at the tomb in 1980 and has published detailed findings on its contents, on Saturday night dismissed the claims. "It makes a great story for a TV film," he told The Jerusalem Post. "But it's impossible. It's nonsense."
Kloner, who said he was interviewed for the new film but has not seen it, said the names found on the ossuaries were common, and the fact that such apparently resonant names had been found together was of no significance. He added that "Jesus son of Joseph" inscriptions had been found on several other ossuaries over the years.
"There is no likelihood that Jesus and his relatives had a family tomb," Kloner said. "They were a Galilee family with no ties in Jerusalem. The Talpiot tomb belonged to a middle-class family from the 1st century CE." *

Replies to this message:
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 19 of 242 (387241)
02-27-2007 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by AnswersInGenitals
02-26-2007 7:43 PM


AiG writes:
In the documentary or in the coffin?
*Badum Tish!*

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 20 of 242 (387251)
02-27-2007 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Dr Adequate
02-26-2007 10:23 PM


on an lj community, i made the following predictions wrt to the "documentary:"
quote:
it will present no new material (even the material it presents as new). it will muddle time lines. it make a number of logical fallacies. and it will generally distort evidence.
i've got another one, based on this, and jacobovici's last film.
Kloner, who said he was interviewed for the new film but has not seen it...
it will quotemine actual authorities on the subject, who will then be forced to speak out against the inaccurate way in which they were presented on screen.


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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 21 of 242 (387256)
02-27-2007 12:06 PM


The only discussion of the DNA evidence I have heard of so far has seemed to be concerned with the familial relationships of the remains discovered in the tomb, and so far only to show that two of the sets of remains were not related. I don't quite see what possible context there would be for actually identifying any specific sample as belonging to Jesus.
Most of the 'statistics' seem to be concerned with the frequencies of certain names, particularly 'Jesus son of Joseph' and 'Mariamne'.
TTFN,
WK

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 242 (387267)
02-27-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
02-26-2007 11:54 AM


quote:
statistical analysis and DNA show the tomb is that of Jesus.
It's not clear from the article, but do they have a sample of Jesus's DNA?
Of course not. This is an absurd claim. About the best you can do with blood found is determine if a human shed it, determine the racial genetic markers, and probably the sex of the person who shed it. That's about it. As you alluded to, in order for someone to match the blood in the tomb would first mean that Jesus' blood to be on file some 2,000 years before the advent of DNA testing.
What you can do is rule out suspects.... so to speak. Another claim is that the Shroud of Turin contains trace amounts of human blood. Since the Shroud is reputed to have wrapped Jesus' body for burial, you can either confirm a match between the Shroud and the tomb or to bring it into disrepute. Afterall, if the Shroud is the burial clothing of Jesus and the tomb is legitimate, then why isn't the Shroud in the tomb? Obviously one or both are forgeries or are misinterpretations of evidence.
Now, to the Talpoit tomb itself.
What hoopla is really about is that its posited to have six names that are similar to the gospel accounts and that it is statistically improbable that a family would contain these same names-- even though most of the names were incredibly common at that time. That's like saying, "Bill, Bob, Jane, and Tom" could only come from one possible source.
A recent article I read offers these questions about the validity of the claim:
IF IT REALLY WAS JESUS' TOMB---
In the final analysis this seems like yet another attempt to malign Jesus. Interestingly, those who have an aversion towards Jesus often deny His existence altogether-- that is, until something that contradicts the gospels comes to light. And then all of a sudden Jesus was real, but there was nothing divine about Him.
You aren't ever going to find Jesus in any tomb in any place on earth because He rose from the dead. All praise, honor, and glory to Him. Amen.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 24 by Heathen, posted 02-27-2007 2:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 27 by Chiroptera, posted 02-27-2007 3:29 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 28 by NosyNed, posted 02-27-2007 3:36 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 02-27-2007 4:09 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 30 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-27-2007 4:44 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 47 by arachnophilia, posted 02-28-2007 4:47 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 23 of 242 (387269)
02-27-2007 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 1:35 PM


You aren't ever going to find Jesus in any tomb in any place on earth because He rose from the dead.
you cite all these real reasons why the tomb isn't his, and then end with this fantasy. why, oh why am I not surprised?

"Have the Courage to Know!" --Immanuel Kant
" One useless man is a disgrace. Two are called a law firm. Three or more are called a congress" --paraphrased, John Adams
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This message is a reply to:
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 24 of 242 (387276)
02-27-2007 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 1:35 PM


NJ writes:
You aren't ever going to find Jesus in any tomb in any place on earth because He rose from the dead. All praise, honor, and glory to Him. Amen
Interesting how you fill a post with logical evidence to disprove the "Jesus-tomb" find, all the time insisting that there is no evidence to support the claims.. and then in one fell swoop you turn your back on this very reasoning and claim (without evidence)that he infact floated up into the sky...
Astounding. Simply astounding and completely indicative of the fundamentalist's reliance on dishonesty to maintain their beliefs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2007 1:35 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2007 6:57 PM Heathen has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 242 (387278)
02-27-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by kuresu
02-27-2007 1:45 PM


tomb
you cite all these real reasons why the tomb isn't his, and then end with this fantasy. why, oh why am I not surprised?
Because it isn't a fantasy.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 26 of 242 (387280)
02-27-2007 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 2:55 PM


Re: tomb
quote:
Because it isn't a fantasy.
*ahem*
That should read, "Because I believe, without a shadow of a doubt, that it isn't a fantasy."
Your absolute belief in a thing does not change the fact of there being no evidence for it. So please be honest and do not state it as fact, or state clearly that it is fact to you, and not necessarily to everyone.
Back on topic - I'm skeptical. Kinda smells like Ron Wyatt and the Ark all over again.

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 242 (387282)
02-27-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 1:35 PM


Hey, nem.
Yeah, I think most of agree that the silly factor on this story is pretty high.
However,
quote:
Interestingly, those who have an aversion towards Jesus often deny His existence altogether-- that is, until something that contradicts the gospels comes to light. And then all of a sudden Jesus was real, but there was nothing divine about Him.
I don't see what the problem is in general. So some people, like myself, doubt that Jesus existed. That is not denying that he existed -- to flat out deny that he existed one would have to have some sort of good evidence that he did not. Doubting that he existed is simply stating that whatever evidence that does exist is not compelling enough for those people to come to a firm conclusion that he did exist.
I don't know if this the same as "denying altogether", and it certainly isn't an "aversion". Just an acknowledgement that the evidence isn't good enough to come to a definite conclusion one way or the other.
Now it is entirely reasonable to suppose that the Gospels might find their origins in the teaching of a particular person. That doesn't meant that the person existed, just that it is a possibility. The only way to determine that is if evidence for his existence does turn up.
Now I agree that this tomb thing is not such evidence; but there is nothing irrational about doubting even the existence of a real (but not divine) person upon whom the Christian Messiah is modelled, but then accepting that such a (non-divine) person did exist if suitable evidence comes to light.
-
By the way, are you still due to be recalled to active duty? Is it imminent? I, for one, don't wish to see you go, and I hope you return safely. I hope that you are able to continue your posting here in the future. Don't be shy if you can at least spare a few minutes to let us know that you are still well.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2007 1:35 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 28 of 242 (387284)
02-27-2007 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 1:35 PM


Some circles in the reasoning
I'm not inclined to think this is real either but at least there seems to be some evidence that can be examined. It's not at all clear that the examination has been done very well though. We'll have to see what comes along next.
However, you list of questions about it aren't all so very solid:
Criticisms of Cameron et als scholarship:
1., 6., 7.
Assuming Bible is correct even in the details:
2., 3., 4., 8.
Somewhat more interesting questions:
5.
But that one isn't any big deal if we judge that this Jesus was just one of a number of local preachers. To some degree this is also assuming the Bible is correct.
It doesn't leave much.
The biggest objection is that a careful, published analysis is not complete. And by complete I mean including critisism by those who are more disinterested in the question.
Right now it's a big maybe with lots of reasons to not get too excited about it. But your list doesn't represent any real good reasons.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 29 of 242 (387288)
02-27-2007 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 1:35 PM


1. Why don’t Cameron and Jacobovici cite scholars who disagree with their conclusions? For example, in 1996, when the British Broadcasting Corp. aired a short documentary on the same subject, archaeologists challenged the claims.
Because this isn’t a critical documentary, it is a persuasive documentary.
2. Since the custom was to bury the dead in their home town,
Well, the custom was to bury criminals in a common grave, not to return the body to the family at all.
3. Why didn’t Jesus’ enemies, the Jewish leaders, expose the tomb?
Probably because they weren’t Jesus’ enemies. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment not a Jewish one.
4. Why didn’t the Romans expose the inscriptions as belonging to Jesus?
Why would they?
Roman soldiers controlled the entire city of Jerusalem, and they knew his body was missing from a tomb they had been guarding.
Unless this really didn’t happen.
5. Why didn’t contemporary Roman or Jewish historians write about the tomb? Not one single contemporary historian mentions the tomb in question.
Not one contemporary single historian mentions Jesus in any shape or form.
Why was the James Ossuary, which has been labeled a forgery, cited by Cameron and Jacobovici as one of the reasons for the tomb”s validity?
Probably because many Christians still don’t believe it is a forgery.
7. Why are Jacobovici and Cameron waiting until just prior to Easter to launch both the book and documentary? Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television. "They just want to get money for it," Kloner said.
It is pretty certain that many Christians will part with their money for this garbage, Cameron isn’t stupid, but he is greedy.
8. Why would Jesus’ disciples endure torture for claiming he was resurrected, if they knew it was a hoax?
Well, we don’t know if they did endure torture or not.
The claim is just crap, but Christians buy crap, especially American Christians. There is no dumber animal.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 30 of 242 (387295)
02-27-2007 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 1:35 PM


In the final analysis this seems like yet another attempt to malign Jesus. Interestingly, those who have an aversion towards Jesus often deny His existence altogether-- that is, until something that contradicts the gospels comes to light. And then all of a sudden Jesus was real, but there was nothing divine about Him.
Please give me any example whatsoever of any person who has done as you have just described. You describe the phenomenon as "interesting"; may we take it, then, that you have actually witnessed it, rather than just making it up?
All the people I've talked to who deny the existence of Jesus, and who have an opinion on the "Jesus tomb" are in fact maintaining that this can't be his tomb 'cos he didn't exist.
---
In fact, I have yet to hear any non-Christian of any stripe accepting that this is in fact the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth.

This message is a reply to:
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