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Author | Topic: Jesus Tomb Found | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1344 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Maybe it's something stupid like Ron Wyatt's claim to have found Jesus' blood. I suspect it's not quite that silly, though. But it's the same guy who was behind the "Exodus Decoded" rubbish so expect lots of misrepresentations of the evidence. i can't even begin to describe how frustrated i am that people are going to not only believe, but BUY this drivel. this is not a question of religion. people might take it as evidence that jesus as real. people might take it as evidence that christianity is bunk. that's not the issue. the issue is that people are going to take it as evidence, when it will simply be nothing more than distortions, lies, speculation, and mental gymnastics. it's already known that part of the documentary relies on the james ossuary -- a known forgery. jacobovici admits that the 1970 photos of it in the residence of an infamous forger kind of limit its authenticity as an artifact "discovered" in 1980 -- but purports the pictures were simply printed on old paper. yeah, backflip on that one.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3291 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
prophex writes:
You know, you've brought a whole new meaning to quote mining. In my post that you responded to, I specifically said...
Please, admit you know nothing, and stop shouting this garbage as if it is worthy of a glance.
quote:As you can clearly see, I admitted to my own ignorance. In the next part of my post which you responded to... quote:After rereading my own words, I still don't see how that could have come across as proclaiming myself to know anything. So, is this one of those prophex rebellious know-it-all moments or have I offended you in the past and now everything I say makes you angry?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Let's hear from the archaeologist who found the ossuaries.
quote:
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
AiG writes:
*Badum Tish!*
In the documentary or in the coffin?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1344 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
on an lj community, i made the following predictions wrt to the "documentary:"
quote: i've got another one, based on this, and jacobovici's last film.
Kloner, who said he was interviewed for the new film but has not seen it... it will quotemine actual authorities on the subject, who will then be forced to speak out against the inaccurate way in which they were presented on screen.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
The only discussion of the DNA evidence I have heard of so far has seemed to be concerned with the familial relationships of the remains discovered in the tomb, and so far only to show that two of the sets of remains were not related. I don't quite see what possible context there would be for actually identifying any specific sample as belonging to Jesus.
Most of the 'statistics' seem to be concerned with the frequencies of certain names, particularly 'Jesus son of Joseph' and 'Mariamne'. TTFN, WK
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
quote: It's not clear from the article, but do they have a sample of Jesus's DNA? Of course not. This is an absurd claim. About the best you can do with blood found is determine if a human shed it, determine the racial genetic markers, and probably the sex of the person who shed it. That's about it. As you alluded to, in order for someone to match the blood in the tomb would first mean that Jesus' blood to be on file some 2,000 years before the advent of DNA testing. What you can do is rule out suspects.... so to speak. Another claim is that the Shroud of Turin contains trace amounts of human blood. Since the Shroud is reputed to have wrapped Jesus' body for burial, you can either confirm a match between the Shroud and the tomb or to bring it into disrepute. Afterall, if the Shroud is the burial clothing of Jesus and the tomb is legitimate, then why isn't the Shroud in the tomb? Obviously one or both are forgeries or are misinterpretations of evidence. Now, to the Talpoit tomb itself.
What hoopla is really about is that its posited to have six names that are similar to the gospel accounts and that it is statistically improbable that a family would contain these same names-- even though most of the names were incredibly common at that time. That's like saying, "Bill, Bob, Jane, and Tom" could only come from one possible source. A recent article I read offers these questions about the validity of the claim: IF IT REALLY WAS JESUS' TOMB---
In the final analysis this seems like yet another attempt to malign Jesus. Interestingly, those who have an aversion towards Jesus often deny His existence altogether-- that is, until something that contradicts the gospels comes to light. And then all of a sudden Jesus was real, but there was nothing divine about Him. You aren't ever going to find Jesus in any tomb in any place on earth because He rose from the dead. All praise, honor, and glory to Him. Amen. "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2513 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
You aren't ever going to find Jesus in any tomb in any place on earth because He rose from the dead. you cite all these real reasons why the tomb isn't his, and then end with this fantasy. why, oh why am I not surprised? "Have the Courage to Know!" --Immanuel Kant " One useless man is a disgrace. Two are called a law firm. Three or more are called a congress" --paraphrased, John Adams Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1283 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
NJ writes:
Interesting how you fill a post with logical evidence to disprove the "Jesus-tomb" find, all the time insisting that there is no evidence to support the claims.. and then in one fell swoop you turn your back on this very reasoning and claim (without evidence)that he infact floated up into the sky... You aren't ever going to find Jesus in any tomb in any place on earth because He rose from the dead. All praise, honor, and glory to Him. Amen Astounding. Simply astounding and completely indicative of the fundamentalist's reliance on dishonesty to maintain their beliefs
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
you cite all these real reasons why the tomb isn't his, and then end with this fantasy. why, oh why am I not surprised? Because it isn't a fantasy. "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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IrishRockhound Member (Idle past 4436 days) Posts: 569 From: Ireland Joined: |
quote: *ahem* That should read, "Because I believe, without a shadow of a doubt, that it isn't a fantasy." Your absolute belief in a thing does not change the fact of there being no evidence for it. So please be honest and do not state it as fact, or state clearly that it is fact to you, and not necessarily to everyone. Back on topic - I'm skeptical. Kinda smells like Ron Wyatt and the Ark all over again.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Hey, nem.
Yeah, I think most of agree that the silly factor on this story is pretty high. However,
quote: I don't see what the problem is in general. So some people, like myself, doubt that Jesus existed. That is not denying that he existed -- to flat out deny that he existed one would have to have some sort of good evidence that he did not. Doubting that he existed is simply stating that whatever evidence that does exist is not compelling enough for those people to come to a firm conclusion that he did exist. I don't know if this the same as "denying altogether", and it certainly isn't an "aversion". Just an acknowledgement that the evidence isn't good enough to come to a definite conclusion one way or the other. Now it is entirely reasonable to suppose that the Gospels might find their origins in the teaching of a particular person. That doesn't meant that the person existed, just that it is a possibility. The only way to determine that is if evidence for his existence does turn up. Now I agree that this tomb thing is not such evidence; but there is nothing irrational about doubting even the existence of a real (but not divine) person upon whom the Christian Messiah is modelled, but then accepting that such a (non-divine) person did exist if suitable evidence comes to light. - By the way, are you still due to be recalled to active duty? Is it imminent? I, for one, don't wish to see you go, and I hope you return safely. I hope that you are able to continue your posting here in the future. Don't be shy if you can at least spare a few minutes to let us know that you are still well. Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
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NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
I'm not inclined to think this is real either but at least there seems to be some evidence that can be examined. It's not at all clear that the examination has been done very well though. We'll have to see what comes along next.
However, you list of questions about it aren't all so very solid: Criticisms of Cameron et als scholarship:1., 6., 7. Assuming Bible is correct even in the details:2., 3., 4., 8. Somewhat more interesting questions:5. But that one isn't any big deal if we judge that this Jesus was just one of a number of local preachers. To some degree this is also assuming the Bible is correct. It doesn't leave much. The biggest objection is that a careful, published analysis is not complete. And by complete I mean including critisism by those who are more disinterested in the question. Right now it's a big maybe with lots of reasons to not get too excited about it. But your list doesn't represent any real good reasons.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
1. Why don’t Cameron and Jacobovici cite scholars who disagree with their conclusions? For example, in 1996, when the British Broadcasting Corp. aired a short documentary on the same subject, archaeologists challenged the claims. Because this isn’t a critical documentary, it is a persuasive documentary.
2. Since the custom was to bury the dead in their home town, Well, the custom was to bury criminals in a common grave, not to return the body to the family at all.
3. Why didn’t Jesus’ enemies, the Jewish leaders, expose the tomb? Probably because they weren’t Jesus’ enemies. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment not a Jewish one.
4. Why didn’t the Romans expose the inscriptions as belonging to Jesus? Why would they?
Roman soldiers controlled the entire city of Jerusalem, and they knew his body was missing from a tomb they had been guarding. Unless this really didn’t happen.
5. Why didn’t contemporary Roman or Jewish historians write about the tomb? Not one single contemporary historian mentions the tomb in question. Not one contemporary single historian mentions Jesus in any shape or form.
Why was the James Ossuary, which has been labeled a forgery, cited by Cameron and Jacobovici as one of the reasons for the tomb”s validity? Probably because many Christians still don’t believe it is a forgery.
7. Why are Jacobovici and Cameron waiting until just prior to Easter to launch both the book and documentary? Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television. "They just want to get money for it," Kloner said. It is pretty certain that many Christians will part with their money for this garbage, Cameron isn’t stupid, but he is greedy.
8. Why would Jesus’ disciples endure torture for claiming he was resurrected, if they knew it was a hoax? Well, we don’t know if they did endure torture or not. The claim is just crap, but Christians buy crap, especially American Christians. There is no dumber animal. Brian.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
In the final analysis this seems like yet another attempt to malign Jesus. Interestingly, those who have an aversion towards Jesus often deny His existence altogether-- that is, until something that contradicts the gospels comes to light. And then all of a sudden Jesus was real, but there was nothing divine about Him. Please give me any example whatsoever of any person who has done as you have just described. You describe the phenomenon as "interesting"; may we take it, then, that you have actually witnessed it, rather than just making it up? All the people I've talked to who deny the existence of Jesus, and who have an opinion on the "Jesus tomb" are in fact maintaining that this can't be his tomb 'cos he didn't exist. --- In fact, I have yet to hear any non-Christian of any stripe accepting that this is in fact the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth.
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