Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-27-2019 6:51 AM
24 online now:
Meddle (1 member, 23 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Upcoming Birthdays: ooh-child
Post Volume:
Total: 854,844 Year: 9,880/19,786 Month: 2,302/2,119 Week: 338/724 Day: 1/62 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
456
...
17NextFF
Author Topic:   Jesus Tomb Found
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5692
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 31 of 242 (387309)
02-27-2007 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Heathen
02-27-2007 2:20 PM


Interesting how you fill a post with logical evidence to disprove the "Jesus-tomb" find, all the time insisting that there is no evidence to support the claims.. and then in one fell swoop you turn your back on this very reasoning and claim (without evidence)that he in fact floated up into the sky.

I can't prove in any empirical sense that Jesus rose any more than I can prove that Helen of Troy died. We don't assume that she is still alive because as far as we know, every person that has ever lived on the earth has died or will die. Obviously the testimony that Jesus rose again is going to be more difficult. But lets examine what we know. Christianity at its foundation has the resurrection as being an integral theme. The soteriology is paramount to the overall story. And the only way for its completion is through an acceptable propitiation.

We know from Biblical and extra biblical sources that Jesus was in fact an incredibly controversial figure at that time. Since Judea was under Roman occupation, it were the chief priests who collaborated with the Roman procurators. All parties involved knew that Jesus preached that He would raise from the dead and discussed how to secure the tomb with guards. Once it was discovered that the tomb was in fact empty, the charge fell on the guards as a story of Jesus' disciples must have come and stolen the body from inept Roman centurians. Why? Because they couldn't deny that His tomb was empty and had to come up with an alternative explanation. So the polemic of the disciple story, that they stole the body, was circulated. The fact that the Jewish leaders never denied that Jesus' tomb was empty, but only tried to explain it away is compelling evidence that the tomb was in fact empty.

That brings me to the tomb. We know where the tomb of Jesus was. This hasn't recently surfaced. We've known this since the day He died. He was laid to rest in what is now known as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is an early church that venerated the site by building a church surrounding the tomb.

Astounding. Simply astounding and completely indicative of the fundamentalist's reliance on dishonesty to maintain their beliefs

What is "dishonest" about believing that Jesus Christ, unquestionably the most popular man in the history of history, did in fact raise from the dead as He prophesied beforehand? Look, if you don't believe it, that;s on you. You'll have a chance to ask Him yourself whether or not He raised from the dead.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Heathen, posted 02-27-2007 2:20 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Heathen, posted 02-27-2007 8:51 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 33 by Nighttrain, posted 02-28-2007 2:11 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 34 by PaulK, posted 02-28-2007 2:45 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 36 by anastasia, posted 02-28-2007 10:49 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 93 by honda33, posted 03-01-2007 2:51 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1048
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 32 of 242 (387320)
02-27-2007 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 6:57 PM


NJ writes:

Since Judea was under Roman occupation, it were the chief priests who collaborated with the Roman procurators. All parties involved knew that Jesus preached that He would raise from the dead and discussed how to secure the tomb with guards. Once it was discovered that the tomb was in fact empty, the charge fell on the guards as a story of Jesus' disciples must have come and stolen the body from inept Roman centurians. Why? Because they couldn't deny that His tomb was empty and had to come up with an alternative explanation. So the polemic of the disciple story, that they stole the body, was circulated. The fact that the Jewish leaders never denied that Jesus' tomb was empty, but only tried to explain it away is compelling evidence that the tomb was in fact empty.


a compelling story. How are you sure it's the truth?

NJ writes:

What is "dishonest" about believing that Jesus Christ, unquestionably the most popular man in the history of history, did in fact raise from the dead as He prophesied beforehand? Look, if you don't believe it, that;s on you. You'll have a chance to ask Him yourself whether or not He raised from the dead.


What's dishonest is that you have such a double standard. On the one hand your are happy to cite lack of evidence as reason enough to iscount the "jesus tomb" story, while on the other you are able to aadmit lack of evidence while still maintaining your jesus myth.
Either you require evidence for your beliefs /opinions or you don't.
If you mix and match where it suits, it undermines your arguments and opinions

Edited by Creavolution, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2007 6:57 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 12:29 PM Heathen has responded

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2167 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 33 of 242 (387337)
02-28-2007 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 6:57 PM


Was He or wasn`t He?
We know from Biblical and extra biblical sources that Jesus was in fact an incredibly controversial figure at that time

So controversial that only believers wrote of Him? Where are the records of the Jewish opposition (Herod, Sanhedrin, Pharisees)? Where are the records from the occupying Power? Where are the comments by travellers? Why didn`t the Essenes mention Him by name? The Samaritans? The residents of the Decapolis?

BTW, how come no one but believers noticed the zombies strolling around town? Must have been a few relatives who noted 'Look, there goes Grandpa.':-p


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2007 6:57 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 3:33 PM Nighttrain has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15085
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 34 of 242 (387338)
02-28-2007 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 6:57 PM


quote:

We know from Biblical and extra biblical sources that Jesus was in fact an incredibly controversial figure at that time.


This is highly questionable. The only extra-Biblical source I know of that mentions Jesus in the context of his times is the contested reference in Josephus. Even if it is partly genuine Jesus is still not that important a figure, mentioned only in passing.

quote:

All parties involved knew that Jesus preached that He would raise from the dead and discussed how to secure the tomb with guards

This probably isn't true. It isn't even in all the Gospels. Likely the author of "Matthew" (whoever he was) added the guards.

quote:

Once it was discovered that the tomb was in fact empty, the charge fell on the guards as a story of Jesus' disciples must have come and stolen the body from inept Roman centurians. Why? Because they couldn't deny that His tomb was empty and had to come up with an alternative explanation.

We have no reliable evidence that this is the case. We don't have any accounts from non-Christian sources or even true contemporary sources. We don't even have a clear reference to the Empty Tomb story prior to Mark (itself written about 30 years after the events and likely second-hand at best). While the resurrection might have been important to Christianity the story isn't mentioned before then and the accounts we have don't clearly match - seeming instead to be elaborated and developed from whatever origin it had (which may not be any factual basis).

quote:

The fact that the Jewish leaders never denied that Jesus' tomb was empty, but only tried to explain it away is compelling evidence that the tomb was in fact empty.


It might be, if we knew it to be a fact. But we don't. Even if it were a fact it still doesn't establish what happened to the body.

quote:

That brings me to the tomb. We know where the tomb of Jesus was. This hasn't recently surfaced. We've known this since the day He died. He was laid to rest in what is now known as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is an early church that venerated the site by building a church surrounding the tomb.

Or is it the Garden Tomb ? The fact is that we don't know that either of them was the tomb, nor can we even be certain that there was a tomb.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2007 6:57 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 4:48 PM PaulK has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 343 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 35 of 242 (387345)
02-28-2007 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by joshua221
02-26-2007 6:28 PM


quote:
Please, admit you know nothing, and stop shouting this garbage as if it is worthy of a glance.

Yeah!

I mean, sometimes people do really ignorant, thoughtless things like declare the highly-influential musical group, The Beatles, as nothing special and "average joe's" even though they don't know about the history of or context in which their music was being made, and haven't even listened to much of The Beatles' work.

I mean, I really wish people who do things like that would just admit that they know nothing and stop shouting that garbage as if it is worthy of a glance.

Donn't you feel the same?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by joshua221, posted 02-26-2007 6:28 PM joshua221 has not yet responded

    
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4126 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 36 of 242 (387365)
02-28-2007 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 6:57 PM


Just giving my two cents here, probably not worth even that much.

I have a hard time understanding where researchers draw the lines in regards to Biblical historicity. Never mind the resurrection. No one can do much about proving or unproving that. Personally I believe in a corporeal resurrection but who cares? Can anyone be sure that any bones found in a tomb are from the original and only body ever placed in that tomb?

To me, for someone to prove the existance of an historical Jesus, bones aside, I would minimally expect that the Biblcal account be regarded as true in all areas first; Jesus had no wife, no son, no for-sure brothers. I have no problem with changing the Biblical account per se, but what part? Would it not be easier to declare that the name of Mary Magdalene, maybe to protect her, etc was changed, than to declare that major factors such as marital status were changed?

It is not that I care one way or another whether Jesus had a wife or son or brothers. Just, 'historically' He didn't. The Bible may not be historical, but there is nothing else to go by. So, basically, finding bone boxes which match some names up etc is only proof that some Jesus existed, but not the Biblical Jesus.

I need to know how there can be proof of the Biblical Jesus, without following the Biblical account. It is the usual anti-fundy arguement reversed; if some parts of the Bible are suspect, how does one decide which parts aren't? How can anyone know, for example, that if Jesus did not die as said, that He would have married Mary Magdalene, lived in Jerusalem, or had only one son? Aside from the Biblcal account, there is no way to figure what to look for, or where to look. The bones of Jesus could be in France, or Africa.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2007 6:57 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 8:26 PM anastasia has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5692
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 37 of 242 (387377)
02-28-2007 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Chiroptera
02-27-2007 3:29 PM


I don't see what the problem is in general. So some people, like myself, doubt that Jesus existed. That is not denying that he existed -- to flat out deny that he existed one would have to have some sort of good evidence that he did not. Doubting that he existed is simply stating that whatever evidence that does exist is not compelling enough for those people to come to a firm conclusion that he did exist.

I can't speak for you Chiro, but what I can do is simply notice the fanfare when something turns up concerning Jesus. If it corroborates the gospel, there will be no fanfare. If something even as cryptic as the gospel of Judas turns up in Egypt or a tomb that they want to believe is Jesus' is found, respectable magazines like the National Geographic is quick to jump all over it. It shows the motivation of the authors and editors.

it is entirely reasonable to suppose that the Gospels might find their origins in the teaching of a particular person. That doesn't meant that the person existed, just that it is a possibility. The only way to determine that is if evidence for his existence does turn up.

For face value I certainly agree. But why isn't this used for other historical figures? Do we know any more or less that Hector the Trojan lived?

By the way, are you still due to be recalled to active duty? Is it imminent?

I don't remember telling anyone that I thought I was going to be recalled, but I obviously must have mentioned that at some point. It looks like Iran is content on not following the UN sanctions. I suspect that the US military might be ramping up forces soon. But I actually am set to go back to active duty, but it won't be with the Navy, it will be with the Coast Guard as of March 15, unless something goes wrong.

I, for one, don't wish to see you go, and I hope you return safely. I hope that you are able to continue your posting here in the future. Don't be shy if you can at least spare a few minutes to let us know that you are still well.

I will probably be out to sea in alternating two week intervals. I know they have internet access on the ships but I'm not entirely sure how much time I will have. Probably not nearly as much, but I will try to stay as active as I can. Thank you for the kind words :)


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Chiroptera, posted 02-27-2007 3:29 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 02-28-2007 11:50 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15085
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 38 of 242 (387383)
02-28-2007 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2007 11:30 AM


quote:

I can't speak for you Chiro, but what I can do is simply notice the fanfare when something turns up concerning Jesus. If it corroborates the gospel, there will be no fanfare. If something even as cryptic as the gospel of Judas turns up in Egypt or a tomb that they want to believe is Jesus' is found, respectable magazines like the National Geographic is quick to jump all over it. It shows the motivation of the authors and editors.

So far as I can see this isn't true - and that you would claim it speaks more to your agenda. What major finds did you have in mind ? The James Ossuary was pretty widely hyped, for instance. Aren't you counting that one ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 11:30 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5692
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 39 of 242 (387401)
02-28-2007 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Heathen
02-27-2007 8:51 PM


a compelling story. How are you sure it's the truth?

I'm gonna get a little existential for a minute. How do you anything is the truth? How can there be truth unless it is absolute? What predicates reality? What is, or what are, the defining principle(s) that constitute reality? Is it not possibly the apex of mankind’s endless questions, listed high on the totem with the other biggie, ‘what is the meaning of life?’ Reality is the quantitative summation of all things true. But as the Roman Procurator famously and profoundly stated to Jesus, [it]"What is Truth"[/i]

What's dishonest is that you have such a double standard. On the one hand your are happy to cite lack of evidence as reason enough to iscount the "jesus tomb" story, while on the other you are able to aadmit lack of evidence while still maintaining your jesus myth.
Either you require evidence for your beliefs /opinions or you don't.
If you mix and match where it suits, it undermines your arguments and opinions

Everybody speaks about their beliefs in a manner indicative of the truth because no one espouses things they don't actually believe. The Tomb story is easy to debunk because there is tangible evidence that discounts it. But the fact remains that Jesus, the most historic figure in human history, is still missing. There is ample evidence aside from the Bible that not only did He exist, but that He was despised and thought of as a troublemaker which necessitated His crucifixion. What is hypocritical is that no one seems to concern themselves with whether Plato or Hector really existed. They take that on the value of the annals written about them. But not Jesus. If somebody really wanted to question Jesus' deity, they could question that with a reasonable amount of suspicion, ut not His personhood.

Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : Fixed italics


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Heathen, posted 02-27-2007 8:51 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Wounded King, posted 02-28-2007 12:43 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 41 by Heathen, posted 02-28-2007 1:02 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 44 by RickJB, posted 02-28-2007 3:47 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2268 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 40 of 242 (387408)
02-28-2007 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2007 12:29 PM


Everybody speaks about their beliefs in a manner indicative of the truth because no one espouses things they don't actually believe.

Seriously? Because I happen to be a broker for a cartel that wants to sell the Forth rail bridge for a very reasonable price. I believe that you could benefit financially from this deal, all you need to do is e-mail me with your bank details and credit card number.

the most historic figure in human history

What does this even mean?

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 12:29 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1048
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 41 of 242 (387414)
02-28-2007 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2007 12:29 PM


NJ writes:

I'm gonna get a little existential for a minute. How do you anything is the truth? How can there be truth unless it is absolute? What predicates reality? What is, or what are, the defining principle(s) that constitute reality? Is it not possibly the apex of mankind’s endless questions, listed high on the totem with the other biggie, ‘what is the meaning of life?’ Reality is the quantitative summation of all things true. But as the Roman Procurator famously and profoundly stated to Jesus, "What is Truth""


Deep stuff indeed, but not one word of it explains why you require evidence for some deicions but not for others. You've basically said "well i don't know if anything is real, so I'm going to decide that this is"
meaningless.

NJ writes:

no one espouses things they don't actually believe.


If that was true the world would be a wonderful place.

NJ writes:

But the fact remains that Jesus, the most historic figure in human history, is still missing.


Did he in FACT exist?
("the most historic figure in human history"..... what are you on about?)

NJ writes:

There is ample evidence aside from the Bible that not only did He exist, but that He was despised and thought of as a troublemaker which necessitated His crucifixion.


What evidence? it's clear that Jesus was a common name.

NJ writes:

What is hypocritical is that no one seems to concern themselves with whether Plato or Hector really existed.


The teachings of Plato or hector are not so controversial. People do not live or die because of their belief in Plato or hector.

NJ writes:

If somebody really wanted to question Jesus' deity, they could question that with a reasonable amount of suspicion, ut not His personhood.


I don't question that there was someone called jesus running about in Nazereth/judea all those years ago, there may have been hundreds, thousands maybe.
The question of his divinity is more, much more than the side issue you seem to make of it here

Edited by Creavolution, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 12:29 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Brian, posted 02-28-2007 1:29 PM Heathen has not yet responded
 Message 66 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 10:14 PM Heathen has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3132 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 42 of 242 (387422)
02-28-2007 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Heathen
02-28-2007 1:02 PM


the most historic figure in human history"..... what are you on about?)

I think Nem means that Jesus was the most influential or the best known historical figure in human history. These are common fundy boasts.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Heathen, posted 02-28-2007 1:02 PM Heathen has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5692
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 43 of 242 (387444)
02-28-2007 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Nighttrain
02-28-2007 2:11 AM


Re: Was He or wasn`t He?
So controversial that only believers wrote of Him?

First of all, its amazing that any documents from that time have staved off decay. Aside from that, there are far more than just believers who have written about Jesus.

"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king." -Flavius Josephus (Antiquity of the Jews: Book 20, Chapter 9:200)

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed." -Cornelius Tacitus (The Annals- 15:44)

"Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition." -Pliny: Letters- 10:96

"In the year 3671 (90 BC) in the days of King Jannaeus, a great misfortune befell Israel, when there arose a certain disreputable man of the tribe of Judah, whose name was Joseph Pandera. He lived at Bethlehem, in Judah.

Near his house dwelt a widow and her lovely and chaste daughter named Miriam. Miriam was betrothed to Yohanan, of the royal house of David, a man learned in the Torah and God-fearing.

At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and submitted only against her will.

Thereafter, when Yohanan came to her, Miriam expressed astonishment at behavior so foreign to his character. It was thus that they both came to know the crime of Joseph Pandera and the terrible mistake on the part of Miriam. Whereupon Yohanan went to Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah and related to him the tragic seduction. Lacking witnesses required for the punishment of Joseph Pandera, and Miriam being with child, Yohanan left for Babylonia.

Miriam gave birth to a son and named him Yehoshua, after her brother. This name later deteriorated to Yeshu. On the eighth day he was circumcised. When he was old enough the lad was taken by Miriam to the house of study to be instructed in the Jewish tradition.

One day Yeshu walked in front of the Sages with his head uncovered, showing shameful disrespect. At this, the discussion arose as to whether this behavior did not truly indicate that Yeshu was an illegitimate child and the son of a niddah. Moreover, the story tells that while the rabbis were discussing the Tractate Nezikin, he gave his own impudent interpretation of the law and in an ensuing debate he held that Moses could not be the greatest of the prophets if he had to receive counsel from Jethro. This led to further inquiry as to the antecedents of Yeshu, and it was discovered through Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah that he was the illegitimate son of Joseph Pandera. Miriam admitted it. After this became known, it was necessary for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee.

After King Jannaeus, his wife Helene ruled over all Israel. In the Temple was to be found the Foundation Stone on which were engraven the letters of God's Ineffable Name. Whoever learned the secret of the Name and its use would be able to do whatever he wished. Therefore, the Sages took measures so that no one should gain this knowledge. Lions of brass were bound to two iron pillars at the gate of the place of burnt offerings. Should anyone enter and learn the Name, when he left the lions would roar at him and immediately the valuable secret would be forgotten.

Yeshu came and learned the letters of the Name (The Tetragrmmaton - YHWH); he wrote them upon the parchment which he placed in an open cut on his thigh and then drew the flesh over the parchment. As he left, the lions roared and he forgot the secret. But when he came to his house he reopened the cut in his flesh with a knife an lifted out the writing. Then he remembered and obtained the use of the letters.

He gathered about himself three hundred and ten young men of Israel and accused those who spoke ill of his birth of being people who desired greatness and power for themselves. Yeshu proclaimed, "I am the Messiah; and concerning me Isaiah prophesied and said, 'Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.'" He quoted other messianic texts, insisting, "David my ancestor prophesied concerning me: 'The Lord said to me, thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.'"

The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give them a convincing sign. They therefore, brought to him a lame man, who had never walked. Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name, and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son of the Highest.

When word of these happenings came to Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin decided to bring about the capture of Yeshu. They sent messengers, Annanui and Ahaziah, who, pretending to be his disciples, said that they brought him an invitation from the leaders of Jerusalem to visit them. Yeshu consented on condition the members of the Sanhedrin receive him as a lord. He started out toward Jerusalem and, arriving at Knob, acquired an ass on which he rode into Jerusalem, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah.

The Sages bound him and led him before Queen Helene, with the accusation: "This man is a sorcerer and entices everyone." Yeshu replied, "The prophets long ago prophesied my coming: 'And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,' and I am he; but as for them, Scripture says 'Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly.'"

Queen Helene asked the Sages: "What he says, is it in your Torah?" They replied: "It is in our Torah, but it is not applicable to him, for it is in Scripture: 'And that prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.' He has not fulfilled the signs and conditions of the Messiah."

Yeshu spoke up: "Madam, I am the Messiah and I revive the dead." A dead body was brought in; he pronounced the letters of the Ineffable Name and the corpse came to life. The Queen was greatly moved and said: "This is a true sign." She reprimanded the Sages and sent them humiliated from her presence. Yeshu's dissident followers increased and there was controversy in Israel.

Yeshu went to Upper Galilee. the Sages came before the Queen, complaining that Yeshu practiced sorcery and was leading everyone astray. Therefore she sent Annanui and Ahaziah to fetch him.

The found him in Upper Galilee, proclaiming himself the Son of God. When they tried to take him there was a struggle, but Yeshu said to the men of Upper Galilee: "Wage no battle." He would prove himself by the power which came to him from his Father in heaven. He spoke the Ineffable Name over the birds of clay and they flew into the air. He spoke the same letters over a millstone that had been placed upon the waters. He sat in it and it floated like a boat. When they saw this the people marveled. At the behest of Yeshu, the emissaries departed and reported these wonders to the Queen. She trembled with astonishment.

Then the Sages selected a man named Judah Iskarioto and brought him to the Sanctuary where he learned the letters of the Ineffable Name as Yeshu had done.

When Yeshu was summoned before the queen, this time there were present also the Sages and Judah Iskarioto. Yeshu said: "It is spoken of me, 'I will ascend into heaven.'" He lifted his arms like the wings of an eagle and he flew between heaven and earth, to the amazement of everyone.

The elders asked Iskarioto to do likewise. He did, and flew toward heaven. Iskarioto attempted to force Yeshu down to earth but neither one of the two could prevail against the other for both had the use of the Ineffable Name. However, Iskarioto defiled Yeshu, so that they both lost their power and fell down to the earth, and in their condition of defilement the letters of the Ineffable Name escaped from them. Because of this deed of Judah they weep on the eve of the birth of Yeshu.

Yeshu was seized. His head was covered with a garment and he was smitten with pomegranate staves; but he could do nothing, for he no longer had the Ineffable Name.

Yeshu was taken prisoner to the synagogue of Tiberias, and they bound him to a pillar. To allay his thirst they gave him vinegar to drink. On his head they set a crown of thorns. There was strife and wrangling between the elders and the unrestrained followers of Yeshu, as a result of which the followers escaped with Yeshu to the region of Antioch; there Yeshu remained until the eve of the Passover.

Yeshu then resolved to go the Temple to acquire again the secret of the Name. That year the Passover came on a Sabbath day. On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu, accompanied by his disciples, came to Jerusalem riding upon an ass. Many bowed down before him. He entered the Temple with his three hundred and ten followers. One of them, Judah Iskarioto apprised the Sages that Yeshu was to be found in the Temple, that the disciples had taken a vow by the Ten Commandments not to reveal his identity but that he would point him out by bowing to him. So it was done and Yeshu was seized. Asked his name, he replied to the question by several times giving the names Mattai, Nakki, Buni, Netzer, each time with a verse quoted by him and a counter-verse by the Sages.

Yeshu was put to death on the sixth hour on the eve of the Passover and of the Sabbath. When they tried to hang him on a tree it broke, for when he had possessed the power he had pronounced by the Ineffable Name that no tree should hold him. He had failed to pronounce the prohibition over the carob-stalk, for it was a plant more than a tree, and on it he was hanged until the hour for afternoon prayer, for it is written in Scripture, "His body shall not remain all night upon the tree." They buried him outside the city.

On the first day of the week his bold followers came to Queen Helene with the report that he who was slain was truly the Messiah and that he was not in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied. Diligent search was made and he was not found in the grave where he had been buried. A gardener had taken him from the grave and had brought him into his garden and buried him in the sand over which the waters flowed into the garden.

Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress. When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had done, in order that Yeshu's followers should not steal the body and then claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words, "This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven." Realizing that Yeshu was a false prophet who enticed the people and led them astray, she mocked the followers but praised the Sages.

The disciples went out among the nations--three went to the mountains of Ararat, three to Armenia, three to Rome and three to the kingdoms buy the sea, They deluded the people, but ultimately they were slain.

The erring followers amongst Israel said: "You have slain the Messiah of the Lord." The Israelites answered: "You have believed in a false prophet." There was endless strife and discord for thirty years.

The Sages desired to separate from Israel those who continued to claim Yeshu as the Messiah, and they called upon a greatly learned man, Simeon Kepha, for help. Simeon went to Antioch, main city of the Nazarenes and proclaimed toe them: "I am the disciple of Yeshu. He has sent me to show you the way. I will give you a sign as Yeshu has done."

Simeon, having gained the secret of the Ineffable Name, healed a leper and a lame man by means of it and thus found acceptance as a true disciple. He told them that Yeshu was in heaven, at the right hand of his Father, in fulfillment of Psalm 110:1. He added that Yeshu desired that they separate themselves from the Jews and no longer follow their practices, as Isaiah had said, "Your new moons and your feasts my soul abhorreth." They were now to observe the first day of the week instead of the seventh, the Resurrection instead of the Passover, the Ascension into Heaven instead of the Feast of Weeks, the finding of the Cross instead of the New Year, the Feast of the Circumcision instead of the Day of Atonement, the New Year instead of Chanukah; they were to be indifferent with regard to circumcision and the dietary laws. Also they were to follow the teaching of turning the right if smitten on the left and the meek acceptance of suffering. All these new ordinances which Simeon Kepha (or Paul, as he was known to the Nazarenes) taught them were really meant to separate these Nazarenes from the people of Israel and to bring the internal strife to an end." -Toledoth Yeshu

Therefore, there is ample evidence to assume that not only was Jesus an actual figure in human history, but that He was also a controversial figure known in the world at that time.


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Nighttrain, posted 02-28-2007 2:11 AM Nighttrain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by RickJB, posted 02-28-2007 3:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 59 by Nighttrain, posted 02-28-2007 9:03 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
RickJB
Member (Idle past 3164 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 44 of 242 (387448)
02-28-2007 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2007 12:29 PM


nj writes:

I'm gonna get a little existential for a minute. How do you anything is the truth? How can there be truth unless it is absolute? What predicates reality? What is, or what are, the defining principle(s) that constitute reality?

Ahhh, the classic YEC "what is reality, anyway?" dodge!

A pointless argument. Even if reality is an illusion, that illusion IS our reality. Furthermore, you appear to infer that your faith is somehow exempt from the "questionable reality" that surrounds us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 12:29 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 3164 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 45 of 242 (387451)
02-28-2007 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2007 3:33 PM


Re: Was He or wasn`t He?
nj writes:

Therefore, there is ample evidence to assume that not only was Jesus an actual figure in human history, but that He was also a controversial figure known in the world at that time.

So, as man who (it is said) lived and died all those years ago is it theoretically possible that his remains could be found in a tomb?

(Don't get me wrong by the way, I find James Cameron's evidence dubious at best.)

Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 3:33 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Prev12
3
456
...
17NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019