Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Christianity, Knowledge and Science
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 221 (387554)
03-01-2007 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by bujitsu
02-28-2007 5:44 PM


Re: Damn! Off-topic.
I have been following this discussion with some interest.
First off, I want to welcome you to EvC, bujitsu. While I was a bit concerned that the personal attacks were coming a bit too fast and furious for our Forum Guidelines I hung on and watched the conversation develop. I suggest that you start a new topic in which you introduce yourself and share a bit of your background with us.
I for one would welcome the opportunity to get to know you and the evolution {oops..there is that word again ) recreation of your thought process.
If you truly want to interact and participate with the varied personalities at EvC, it would be wise to use your Christian impartation to the fullest and turn the other cheek often. Discussions here can get a bit heated and controversial but if you allow them to unfold you will get to know us better and we (moderators) will also get to know you a bit better and allow you to bark at our veteran members.
I am a Christian moderator and will, as a member, interact with you if you start an introductory topic.


GOT QUESTIONS? You may click these links for some feedback:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures
  • Thread Reopen Requests
  • Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
  • Forum Guidelines
    ***************************************
    New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
  • "Post of the Month" Forum
    "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU"
    AdminPhat

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 164 by bujitsu, posted 02-28-2007 5:44 PM bujitsu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 167 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 12:05 PM AdminPhat has not replied

      
    bujitsu
    Junior Member (Idle past 6236 days)
    Posts: 22
    Joined: 02-28-2007


    Message 167 of 221 (387589)
    03-01-2007 12:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 166 by AdminPhat
    03-01-2007 8:15 AM


    Re: Damn! Off-topic.
    Thanks AdminPhat.
    I will work on something to post about myself as an introduction.
    I had thought when I first started reading through the forums that, once I started posting, I would of course have people that disagreed with me. I have NO problem with that. First off, that is one of the wonderful freedoms of this country. Second, as a Christian I believe that it is a God given right of free-will to believe what you want, and voice that belief. Of course, just because someone believes with all their heart and mind that something is true...does not make it so. I can believe I am a hard-boiled egg...that does not make it so.
    What honestly caught me off guard was someone coming along, claiming to share my beliefs in Christ, and then directly attacking those beliefs without any more backup then one or two statements from me. I found it very mean spirited and not at all Christ-like.
    For the rest of you, feel free to share your opinions, I have no problem with it. Obviously, there are many varied views, on many different subjects, that are shared here.
    I will add this, and I think this should be addressed to those on every side of this argument. Just because someone does not agree with your point of view, does NOT mean they are delusional, misinformed, lieing, or just not seeing the obvious. You may not like it, I may not like it. But, the fact of the matter is, many people look at evidence, and come to different conclusions. This happens in every area of life. Look at the courts, how often are jurys split. They all saw the same evidence, and yet came to different conclusions. I know some will say; "But that is not science. Science is black and white." Grow up, no it isn't. Are there things in science that are black and white, yes. But it is not all that simple. Many things can be seen, or even infered from the evidence. (And please don't start with trying to explain to me how science works. Don't belittle me that way.)
    Sorry, guess that was a little longer then I planned. I do that at times.
    As I said, I am working on an introduction, and I hope to post it soon.
    Until then,
    Thanks,
    Jason
    P.S. I will do a search for this, but...any suggestions on where to post an introduction?
    Edited by bujitsu, : Added P.S.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 166 by AdminPhat, posted 03-01-2007 8:15 AM AdminPhat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 168 by jar, posted 03-01-2007 12:23 PM bujitsu has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 168 of 221 (387595)
    03-01-2007 12:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 167 by bujitsu
    03-01-2007 12:05 PM


    Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    Sorry Jason if the FACTS upset you.
    But as a Christian I am going to speak out against those others who promote ignorance and wish to force that ignorance on to children.
    If you wish to modify your statements to say: "I believe there was a world-wide flood even though ALL of the evidence shows it never happened."; or "I believe in a Young Earth even though ALL of the evidence shows the Earth is over 4 Billion years old and the Universe at least 14 Billion years old."; or "I believe in special creation even though ALL of the evidence supports Evolution." then I have no problems with what you say.
    However, to imply that Evolution is not FACT, that the Earth is young, that there was a wold-wide flood is NOT a matter of opinion. They are facts.
    ALL the evidence says Evolution happened.
    All the evidence says the Universe is Old.
    All the evidence says there was no world-wide flood.
    It is not a matter of people interpreting the evidence differently. Those who make such a claim are simply lying.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 167 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 12:05 PM bujitsu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 169 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 1:08 PM jar has not replied

      
    bujitsu
    Junior Member (Idle past 6236 days)
    Posts: 22
    Joined: 02-28-2007


    Message 169 of 221 (387604)
    03-01-2007 1:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 168 by jar
    03-01-2007 12:23 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    This may very well be the last time I reply to you Jar. Not because I am afraid of debate. But, because you are way too antagonistic. I rarely doubt someone who claims to be a Christian. This is one of those rare cases. You seem more like someone posing as a Christian, just to attack those who actually are. But, that debate is for another time, and another forum.
    As for the rest of your 'claims'...completely laughable.
    The FACTS, as you say it, do not upset me. The FACTS are looked at by many, and are seen to support more then one conclusion. The very FACT that you deny this shows that you are the deluded one.
    I love how those of your ilk claim that ALL the evidence proves your point. No, it does not. There is a lot of evidence that you can use to show your points could be the truth. But, there are plenty of scientists that have looked at the evidence and believe it shows other truths. Like it or not NOT ALL SCIENTISTS agree with you.
    You can claim they are all lieing, which is totally absurd. You can claim they are all deluded, which is again totally absurd.
    The fact that you claim this:
    Jar writes:
    It is not a matter of people interpreting the evidence differently. Those who make such a claim are simply lying.
    is quite honestly...pathetic. It is a true showing of how arrogant and deluded you truly are. "Anyone who disagrees with me can not honestly believe what they are saying, so they must be lying." That is quite possibly the most arrogant attitude I have ever seen.
    They are NOT lying. They HAVE looked at your so-called evidence, and they DISAGREE with you and your side of the argument. Not EVERYONE, scientist or otherwise supports your cause. GROW up and realize that.
    I never said that everyone agreed with me. I know plenty don't, and they are entitled to their opinion. Do I think they are deluded, not all of them. I say that because I am sure there are those that are deluded on every side of any argument. Do I think those that support the 'other' side are all lying, of course not. I believe there are those on both sides that are lying, and that is a sad truth. I believe that the majority on both sides have done what they believe is honest Due-diligence, and have come to what they 'believe' is the correct answer.
    Stop accusing those who disagree with you of obviously lying. It's sad, not true and a pathetic attempt at putting people down. Those who use that approach are usually those that are not truly strong in their convictions, and must use attacks to make others feel small. It's the typical bully mentality, and you use it well.
    One more point: Do I believe that God is powerful enough to do something that science, in all it's wisdom and knowledge, says can NOT be done. YES, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I know God could make things happen that are completely contradictory to the laws of physics and anything else that we presently think we understand. That being said, I do not believe this is a case where that has happened. So, making any of your statements is not even an option. Because I and many others do not see the evidence as saying the same as you do. No, that is not a lie, it is the truth. Deal with it.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 168 by jar, posted 03-01-2007 12:23 PM jar has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 170 by ringo, posted 03-01-2007 1:23 PM bujitsu has replied
     Message 172 by Phat, posted 03-01-2007 1:55 PM bujitsu has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 170 of 221 (387606)
    03-01-2007 1:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 169 by bujitsu
    03-01-2007 1:08 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    bujitsu writes:
    They HAVE looked at your so-called evidence, and they DISAGREE with you and your side of the argument.
    No matter how many times you repeat it, that's still completely false. The only way to come to a different conclusion on, say, evolution or the age of the earth, is to ignore some of the evidence. That is what the deniers are doing, whether you like it or not, whether you know it or not, whether you admit it or not.
    You are confirming the OP contention that (your brand of) Christianity promotes ignorance.

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 169 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 1:08 PM bujitsu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 171 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 1:42 PM ringo has replied

      
    bujitsu
    Junior Member (Idle past 6236 days)
    Posts: 22
    Joined: 02-28-2007


    Message 171 of 221 (387607)
    03-01-2007 1:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 170 by ringo
    03-01-2007 1:23 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    Ringo writes:
    No matter how many times you repeat it, that's still completely false. The only way to come to a different conclusion on, say, evolution or the age of the earth, is to ignore some of the evidence. That is what the deniers are doing, whether you like it or not, whether you know it or not, whether you admit it or not.
    And again Ringo, I disagree. You and your ilk love to say stuff along the lines of "If you see the evidence differently, you are lying or ignoring the truth." No they aren't. And you claiming that they are is not going to change that fact. Any more then me claiming that they are honestly looking at the evidence and coming to different conclusions is going to convince you otherwise.
    I know you are probably going to disagree with the following statement, but that is fine, I will make it anyway. After all, you are entitled to be wrong.
    In science, scientists OFTEN disagree with findings. Scientists often read the evidence differently. It happens all the time. Please do not try to tell me that in science, the evidence always shows one conlusion. That is utter crap. (I am not saying that there are not cases where that happens, but it is not always the case.)
    That being the case, the FACT is, that there are scientist that have looked at the data, and have come to different conclusions. You can say they are not honest, you can say they are deluded, you can say that they are wrong. Truth is, we can say the same about you and the scientists you support. It's all opinion.
    Stop trying to make it sound like it's a simple argument. It's not like you have a piece of paper that says '1+1=2'. The problem is complex. The evidence is vast. And like it or not, admit it or not, the evidence can, and has, been viewed and seen differenly.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 170 by ringo, posted 03-01-2007 1:23 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 173 by ringo, posted 03-01-2007 1:56 PM bujitsu has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 172 of 221 (387609)
    03-01-2007 1:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 169 by bujitsu
    03-01-2007 1:08 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    Perhaps we need to actually define the difference between facts and beliefs.
    A fact is something that is undeniable...like gravity. There are not different schools of science that approach gravity differently.
    bujitsu writes:
    But, there are plenty of scientists that have looked at the evidence and believe it shows other truths. Like it or not NOT ALL SCIENTISTS agree with you.
    Once you know jar, you will understand his philosophy.
    Explain to me a couple of things.
    1) Is Jesus a fact or a belief?
    2) Is Biblical Inerrency a fact or a belief?
    3) How is a fact defined as such?
    4) How is a belief defined as such?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 169 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 1:08 PM bujitsu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 174 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 2:32 PM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 173 of 221 (387610)
    03-01-2007 1:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 171 by bujitsu
    03-01-2007 1:42 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    bujitsu writes:
    You and your ilk love to say stuff along the lines of....
    Actually, I don't have an "ilk". I'm unique.
    Any more then me claiming that they are honestly looking at the evidence and coming to different conclusions is going to convince you otherwise.
    Y'know what would convince me? You producing examples of those people.
    I have made a negative claim: there is practically nobody who has looked at the evidence honestly and come to a conclusion other than old-earth/evolution. You could easily prove me wrong by citing examples.
    Any innocent bystander who happens to be reading this might come to the conclusion that if ya don't provide any, ya ain't got any.
    In science, scientists OFTEN disagree with findings.
    Sure they do, but when come up with a theory to explain the findings, they have to agree. In the case of evolution, for example, there simply is no alternative theory.
    Now, the topic here is whether or not Christianity "hinders progress", promotes ignorance, etc. If Christianity did deny an old earth and evolution, it certainly would be guilty of promoting ignorance. It has been pointed out to you, however, that Christians who do look at all the evidence honestly do not deny the fact of an old earth or the fact of evolution.

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 171 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 1:42 PM bujitsu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 175 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 3:14 PM ringo has replied

      
    bujitsu
    Junior Member (Idle past 6236 days)
    Posts: 22
    Joined: 02-28-2007


    Message 174 of 221 (387615)
    03-01-2007 2:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
    03-01-2007 1:55 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    Ok, to answer your questions as best I can at this time.
    (And this is all from me. I am not going to go out and get quotes from dictionaries and such.)
    Phat writes:
    1) Is Jesus a fact or a belief?
    Well, first off, there is a lot of debate about this, so I can only answer this from what I have gathered by the evidence. I believe that Jesus is a fact. That he did exsist. Now, I think the belief comes into play around whether or not he was God, or the Son of God, or many other things that are suggested. Including many things he said or did. Yes, there are those that say that there is no evidence he ever exsisted. There are those that say there is plenty showing he did. So, to some this is a fact, to others it is a belief.
    Phat writes:
    2) Is Biblical Inerrency a fact or a belief?
    Belief. Even if I believe it is a fact, it still comes down to being a belief.
    Phat writes:
    3) How is a fact defined as such?
    Through study of the evidence. When the evidence supports something being fact, it is stated as such. (Now, I know many of you are going to want to jump in and say; "Then Evolution is a fact." Not so. many believe the evidence shows evolution as a whole to be a fact. There is a difference. (Which is why we don't have multiple groups arguing about gravity.)
    Phat writes:
    4) How is a belief defined as such?
    I think this can be rather ambiguous, as I feel there are a few variations. Some would describe belief as: 'Holding an opinion about something that has no basis in fact or reality.' Although I agree that this can be the case at times, I do not think it is always the case. Others would describe belief as; 'Holding an opinion about something after looking at all the evidence and coming to a conclusion.' After all, the evidence does not always lead to a simple, consise, fact. If I have never sit in a specific chair, and I walk up to it, and then sit down...I had a belief that the chair would hold my weight. This belief became fact. Now, does that mean that fact will always hold true? No. The next time I sit in the chair, it could collapse. (Many of us have had this happen.) Although, after 50 times of sitting in that specific chair without it collapsing, I am going to have an extremely strong belief that it will hold me up. Until I again sit in that chair, I can not guarantee that 'It will hold me this time' is a fact.
    There, that is what I have at this time. Again, I think most of your questions can honestly have many different answers, or at least many different interpretations.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 172 by Phat, posted 03-01-2007 1:55 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 177 by Phat, posted 03-01-2007 4:21 PM bujitsu has replied

      
    bujitsu
    Junior Member (Idle past 6236 days)
    Posts: 22
    Joined: 02-28-2007


    Message 175 of 221 (387617)
    03-01-2007 3:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 173 by ringo
    03-01-2007 1:56 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    Ringo writes:
    Y'know what would convince me? You producing examples of those people.
    I have made a negative claim: there is practically nobody who has looked at the evidence honestly and come to a conclusion other than old-earth/evolution. You could easily prove me wrong by citing examples.
    Unfortunately, no it would not. You, like many here, would just say something along the lines of: "Those are not REAL scientists." Or come up with some other lame excuse as to why you will not accept the fact that honest scientists have differing opinions from you. You have already made it very clear that you believe anyone who has a different opinion is either deluded, lying, or stupid. So, any list I provided would just be lumped into that category. And God forbid if I had the audacity to include people from The Institute for Creation Research | The Institute for Creation Research or Answers in Genesis (Even though there are many in those organizations who are in fields of study related to the discussion, and who have degrees from very prestigious institutions.)
    And, just for argument sake, here is one list. Although, again, you are not going to like the source, tough. There are plenty of real scientists on them. I know I am going to get attacked ruthlessly for putting this in here. I do not really care. You can argue and say whatever you like, there are REAL scientists on these list. Deal with it. You may not like what they stand for, you may not agree with what they have found from the evidence, TOO BAD. None of that changes the fact that they are real, not illusion.
    ICR Research | The Institute for Creation Research
    ICR Research | The Institute for Creation Research
    ICR Research | The Institute for Creation Research
    Have people associated with those organizations made claims, or statements, or quotes that were later found to be untrue? Yes. That was wrong. (Although I do not agree that every instance was intentional. Some may have been, I do not know.) Unfortunately, you have no problem pointing that out, and yet you will not point out the fact that the main organizations took steps after those incidents to stop that sort of thing from happening, or at least reprimand those that did it. None of them support lying, whether you believe it or not.
    And please don't try to honestly argue that there are only those on one side that would use false information to further a purpose. There are those on both sides. Sad, but true. And no I am not going to provide proof. It's out there and widely known, find it yourself. I am not doing all the work here. I am not worried about the innocent bystander at this time. I just don't see the point in putting any effort into providing a list that you will obviously outright say is either a made up item, or that all those on it are frauds.
    I give your scientists the benefit of the doubt most of the time. Those I have checked up on have proven to be who they say they are. I am sure there are a handful that are not. There are liars and cheaters in all areas of industry, why should science be any different. My point is, I can agree that your side has honest scientist that have looked at the evidence and come to the conclusion they came to. I have a hard time understanding why you can not have the same understanding. Unless it is that you know deep down the legs you stand on are much weaker then you profess?
    Ringo writes:
    Now, the topic here is whether or not Christianity "hinders progress", promotes ignorance, etc. If Christianity did deny an old earth and evolution, it certainly would be guilty of promoting ignorance. It has been pointed out to you, however, that Christians who do look at all the evidence honestly do not deny the fact of an old earth or the fact of evolution.
    Your point is read, and deemed wrong. Again this is just a case of you using your arrogant attitude and name calling. You basically said; 'If you disagree with me, you are obviously ignorant." How pathetic. I am not even sure this is true, but I will say it anyway. You have looked at all the evidence. You have come to a conclusion. Fine, grats, bully for you. Others have looked at the same evidence, and come to DIFFERENT conclusions. You don't have to like it. You, unlike most people, can't even admit it. But, whether you admit it or not, it is true. Your last statement is just patently false. It is a blanket statement that can not even remotely be proven true. Even if I did not already know it to be false. That would be like me saying; "All people, who honestly try Taco Bell, do not deny the fact that Taco Bell is the best food in the world." Not a provable statement, at all. It is also arrogant to the extreme. Basically again saying; "If you don't agree with me, you are either dishonest, or stupid, or just plain lying."
    As per the topic: I would agree that Christianity, or ANY religion, CAN, and does at times, hinder progress, or promote ingnorance. That does not mean it should, or does as a whole. Religion has also many times promoted the killing of ghastly numbers of people. That does not meant the religion itself is bad (although it could be, that is for another debate). It means that the people practicing that religion at the time made choices, based on what they thought to be truth, or possibly just because they wanted to. I do not think you can honestly make a statement like the OP is making and have it be valid. Religion does not, 100% of the time, promote ignorance. Some people practicing said religions often do. There is a difference.
    Edited by bujitsu, : typo...

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 173 by ringo, posted 03-01-2007 1:56 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 176 by ringo, posted 03-01-2007 3:53 PM bujitsu has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 176 of 221 (387623)
    03-01-2007 3:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 175 by bujitsu
    03-01-2007 3:14 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    bujitsu writes:
    You have already made it very clear that you believe anyone who has a different opinion is either deluded, lying, or stupid.
    I've asked you before: where did I ever say that? Try responding to each poster individually instead of lumping everybody who disagrees with you into one "ilk".
    Yes, God would forbid you referring to those two charlatan organizations.
    Neither ICR nor AIG does science. Neither publishes in scientific journals. Neither subjects their "work" to peer review.
    They are in the business of selling videos and books, not doing scientific research. They are in the business of pushing a religious agenda, not seeking knowledge.
    I asked you for examples of scientists, not propagandists.
    And no I am not going to provide proof. It's out there and widely known, find it yourself.
    That's not the way it works. You have to support your position.
    You basically said; 'If you disagree with me, you are obviously ignorant."
    No, I didn't say that at all. I said that if you disagree with virtually every scientist on earth, you must be ignoring the evidence.
    Others have looked at the same evidence, and come to DIFFERENT conclusions.
    STILL not true. Are you going for the record number of repetitions?
    A different opinion, based on a priori religious belief rather than scientific evidence, is not a different "conclusion".
    We are talking about conclusions in the sense of scientific theories. Nobody, nobody at ICR or AIG has come up with a scientific theory as an alternative to evolution.
    I do not think you can honestly make a statement like the OP is making and have it be valid.
    Bear in mind that it isn't my OP and I'm not necessarily agreeing with it. You are the one who is demonstrating that some segments of Christianity promote ignorance.
    Religion does not, 100% of the time, promote ignorance. Some people practicing said religions often do. There is a difference.
    I agree. We are talking specifically about those who promote ignorance by denying evolution.

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 175 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 3:14 PM bujitsu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 179 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 5:10 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 177 of 221 (387631)
    03-01-2007 4:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 174 by bujitsu
    03-01-2007 2:32 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    bujitsu writes:
    I think most of your questions can honestly have many different answers, or at least many different interpretations.
    Is this true of all knowledge? In other words, is truth a relative concept or an absolute reality?
    FYI -- I believe that truth is absolute internally as a belief yet is relative in regards to proof for others.
    I will say, however, that some facts are defined as facts because they are unarguable. The law of gravity is one example.
    Some things we just don't know. How the universe began is one example.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 174 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 2:32 PM bujitsu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 178 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 5:02 PM Phat has not replied

      
    bujitsu
    Junior Member (Idle past 6236 days)
    Posts: 22
    Joined: 02-28-2007


    Message 178 of 221 (387635)
    03-01-2007 5:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 177 by Phat
    03-01-2007 4:21 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    Phat writes:
    Is this true of all knowledge? In other words, is truth a relative concept or an absolute reality?
    My first answer to your question: Yes! Truth is a relative concept, AND an absolute reality.
    To answer this, let me quote something else you wrote:
    Phat writes:
    FYI -- I believe that truth is absolute internally as a belief yet is relative in regards to proof for others.
    I think that in a round about way, that statement answers your question. I think truth is a relative concept, according to what you are talking about. I may hold something as 100% truth internally. But, I agree, that is relative when I have to prove that truth to others. I think there are a much smaller number of real 'truths' out there then we want to admit.
    To quote a certain TV show: "The truth is out there." Truth is truth. It is 100% fact. Whether we know it, is open to interpretation. Maybe it is better said: Truth is absolute reality. Our understanding of said truth is relative.
    Phat writes:
    I will say, however, that some facts are defined as facts because they are unarguable. The law of gravity is one example.
    I can agree with that. Which is why there are not multiple groups arguing about gravity. Although, in all honesty even that could be taken to a higher level. Gravity is fact. What we UNDERSTAND about gravity, and the theories we have about it, are belief.
    I know someone is going to argue about that. My point is, we have discovered certain 'facts' about gravity and the way it works. Years from now, it may come about that our understanding was...not complete. But, most (probably all) scientists of today that have studied the evidence, agree with the majority finding. We all seem to agree that the evidence points in one direction, at least. Which is why we can on a base level make the statement: The law of gravity is a fact. (Even though it could one day be proven to be in error...in theory.)
    Phat writes:
    Some things we just don't know.
    One of the most honest, and truthful things I have read on these boards. I 100% agree. Evolution, and its surrounding theories, are a best guess from the evidence provided. (In some peoples view.) I have no problem with that. I have no problem with someone saying that, at this time, from all the evidence, we believe that evolution is the most obvious way this has all come about. (Even though there are those that disagree.) What I do have a problem with is when people say; "Evolution is a fact." Nope, not according to our understanding of facts. It is an accepted theory of how things happened.
    It's actually rather ironic. I have never in any of my posts tried to prove that evolution is false. I honestly don't care. Could it be true? Sure. Could it be false? Sure. All I have basically said is that there are honest, real scientists that do not agree with the findings from the evidence. Sad that everyone jumped so harshly on that. My belief in God, my assurance of salvation, nothing I truly and deeply believe in is going to be adversly effected, whether or not evolution is true. So, it is honestly not from a deep spiritual or religious area that I make any of my arguments.
    Oh, and one more thing.
    Phat, thanks for your responses. More importantly, thank you, sincerely, for the attitude of those responses. You are one of the few that has responded that I did not feel was trying to bully, or belittle me, or bash me into submission. Thank you.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 177 by Phat, posted 03-01-2007 4:21 PM Phat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 184 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-01-2007 10:46 PM bujitsu has not replied

      
    bujitsu
    Junior Member (Idle past 6236 days)
    Posts: 22
    Joined: 02-28-2007


    Message 179 of 221 (387636)
    03-01-2007 5:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 176 by ringo
    03-01-2007 3:53 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    And this is why I am done with this line of questioning.
    You may not have said that we are all deluded, lying, or stupid as directly as others, but you have made your feelings clear none the less.
    Nothing I produce, nor anyone I show, will satisfy you. You will come up with a false accusation about them not really being scientists, or something of the like. There are studies, but the people who do them are not on YOUR list, so they must be false.
    I can give reason, or what you might call excuses, as to why certain scientist on one side or the other refuse to publish in other journals. Honestly, just look around here, the opposing view is mocked, even though there are those that support it with science. I guarantee, if I found a paper that 100% supported and proved the scientific fact that evolution is a lie. (I am not accusing it, I am making a point.) Most of you would not read it, and chalk it up to falsehood. Proving my point.
    You have not read 100% of the research out there that supports evolution, period. So don't get all high and mighty.
    You are again, wrong. Plenty of work done by members on ICR and others have their information available for review. Most from your side won't review it, because it comes from 'Those people who are non-scientists.' Plenty has been done in a serious effort, you just won't give it credence. Nothing I can say or show is going to change your closed mind. You are doing the same thing most evolutionists accuse creationists of...not having an open mind.
    Who says these groups are all charlatnas? You? So what. No offense, but, who the heck are you? Why should I believe you?
    I provided a list of SCIENTISTS. You just refuse to look at it because they are connected to an organization you do not like. Tough cookies. It's there, check it or not, I do not care. I did my part. You can't change the rules later in the game and say; "No, you have to provide a list from a source that I give you." No list I would come up with would satisfy you, because any list I would provide would have scientists on it that either believed in creation, or did not side with evolution. Because of that, they would be labelled charlatans. I can not speak for everyone in these organizations, just as you can not speak for everyone on your side of this whole debate. I can say this, the majority of them are out to show what they honestly, through scientific study AND belief, believe to be true. I have absolutely NO problem with that. You obviously do. On that note, I am working on an opening for a new topic. The basics of which we have already discussed. "Faith: Is it a part science?" I will prove that it is.
    On another note, you (and most I have heard like you) try to always come across like those who believe and support evolution are an overwhelming majority. Sorry, the statistics do not support that assumption. Search these boards alone and you can find the stats.
    Ringo writes:
    A different opinion, based on a priori religious belief rather than scientific evidence, is not a different "conclusion".
    We are talking about conclusions in the sense of scientific theories. Nobody, nobody at ICR or AIG has come up with a scientific theory as an alternative to evolution.
    You accuse me of repeating myself, and yet you do the same. There are plenty that have looked at the evidence, and come to different SCIENTIFIC conclusions. You may not like it. You may not support it. But denying it does not make it go away.
    This is just utterly prepostorous. If someone tells me they have done some study, and they have come up with a theory that they honestly believe proves how gravity works. They then tell me that this theory basically states; 'Gravity works because there is a hard-boiled egg in Cleveland." I can look at the evidence and show that I read the evidence differently. I do NOT have to come up with a different reason for why gravity works. I have heard so many evolutionists use that as an excuse. So what if we have not come up with an opposing theory. (And I am not saying someone has not.) That is not the point. Many just feel after observing the evidence that evolution on the macro scale is not supported. We do not need to come up with an opposing theory for that statement to be valid.
    I am done with this discussion unless something honestly worth my time comes up. Battling over semantics is pointless. We are not going to get anywhere on this particular argument. I have given reasons as to why. No one can back up any point, if those on the other side of the argument consistently say that any person not agreeing with them is ignorant. Which you HAVE said, in one way or the other. So, this discussion is fruitless.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 176 by ringo, posted 03-01-2007 3:53 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 180 by ringo, posted 03-01-2007 5:41 PM bujitsu has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 180 of 221 (387645)
    03-01-2007 5:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 179 by bujitsu
    03-01-2007 5:10 PM


    Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
    bujitsu writes:
    Nothing I produce, nor anyone I show, will satisfy you.
    Wrong. I have asked you a simple question: where are the scientists that you claim have come to a different conclusion than evolution? Until you answer that question, you have no right to accuse me of rejecting your answer.
    There are studies, but the people who do them are not on YOUR list, so they must be false.
    I don't have a "list". Those "studies" have been falsified on their own lack of merit.
    Plenty of work done by members on ICR and others have their information available for review.
    Then show us.
    Most from your side won't review it, because it comes from 'Those people who are non-scientists.'
    Once again, I don't have a "side". Making wild assumptions doesn't help your case.
    Everything that ICR and AIG do has been examined thoroughly. That's why it is rejected. Your everybody-hates-me defense won't fly.
    Who says these groups are all charlatnas? You? So what. No offense, but, who the heck are you? Why should I believe you?
    I couldn't possibly care less whether or not you "believe" me. We're talking about facts here, not beliefs.
    I provided a list of SCIENTISTS. You just refuse to look at it because they are connected to an organization you do not like.
    Scientists do science. The people on your list don't do science. They are no more scientists than I am an astronaut.
    And again, your everybody-hates-me defense doesn't work. The organizations - ICR and AIG have been proven time and again to be dishonest. They are incapable of - and uninterested in - doing science. You have provided not one iota of evidence that they do science.
    There are plenty that have looked at the evidence, and come to different SCIENTIFIC conclusions.
    No. There are none. I keep repeating that because you have produced no evidence to the contrary. The negative position prevails until some positive evidence exists.
    If someone tells me they have done some study, and they have come up with a theory that they honestly believe proves how gravity works. They then tell me that this theory basically states; 'Gravity works because there is a hard-boiled egg in Cleveland." I can look at the evidence and show that I read the evidence differently. I do NOT have to come up with a different reason for why gravity works.
    Yes you do. That's what a theory is - an explanation. Until you come up with an alternative explanation, the current one prevails, no matter how preposterous.
    If evolution is wrong, why do you suppose it is that nobody has been able to come up with an alternative theory in 150 years?
    Battling over semantics is pointless.
    It isn't semantics, it's a matter of understanding the terminology. For a start, a theory is not just some made-up fairy tale. It has to explain the evidence.
    ICR and AIG have no theory. It's as simple as that.
    As long as you insist on ignoring the evidence and ignoring the theory that explains the evidence, you are confirming the OP: some segments of Christianity do actively encourage ignorance.

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 179 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 5:10 PM bujitsu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 181 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 6:02 PM ringo has replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024