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Author Topic:   Should Evolution and Creation be Taught in School?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 24 of 308 (288735)
02-20-2006 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Murphy
02-20-2006 1:38 PM


Re: Duplication etc.
But one of the basics that I've learned is that scientists are to be taken with a huge grain of salt! They tend to jump onto something that they want to be and ignore obvious proof that doesn't support their position.
Uh-huh. So, essentially, what you're suggesting is that the majority of scientists are either dishonest or simpletons?
What exactly is your experience in the sciences that leads you to conclude that scientists are ignoring counterindications in their data? I work with scientists every day - it's possible to make the argument that I am one myself, though I would not claim such a lofty title yet - and absolutely never in my experience has a scientist reached for data that simply wasn't there, or ignored a disproof of their hypothesis.
Leveling a charge of fraud against an entire profession is a very bold move indeed and I would like you to explain exactly how it is you feel comfortable doing that. Are you trained in the sciences? Do you do science? Do you work with scientists in their laboratories? Or is this just behavior that you're assuming to be true of most scientists?
I think it was Einstein who stated that the probability of life not being of some kind of design was too great to be possible.
Isn't he one of the lying, fraudulent, idiot scientists that you've just told us we need to take with a "grain of salt"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 1:38 PM Murphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 4:24 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 28 of 308 (288772)
02-20-2006 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Murphy
02-20-2006 4:24 PM


Re: Duplication etc.
No, as I said, I'm not a scientist but have had an interest in science as long as I can remember.
Oh, ok. So when you level this charge that scientists as a rule ignore clear contradictions to their theories, you're just making that up. You've never actually seen any scientist do that; that's just how you imagine it. Gotcha.
Are you going to say that they didn't jump to conclusions beyond their knowledge on either side?
What, just because they were wrong? Did it occur to you, possibly, that the reason that the scientific consensus - which never was that there would be an ice age, by the way - concluded global warming when before it had not was because they discovered new evidence that prompted them to change their mind?
Same time, we were taught that the plate theory of continental drift was bunk.
Again, did it occur to you that the reason for this change was because, at the time you're talking about, evidence was unknown that later was known? No? Didn't occur to you at all?
More lack of knowledge before jumping on a theory.
What makes you think they knew they lacked knowledge? Did it occur to you that they came to the conclusion that the evidence warranted, and that as the new evidence comes in, it's reasonable to come to new conclusions?
The charge you leveled wasn't that scientists lack infinite knowledge; of course they don't. Science is done by humans who come to tentative conclusions based on what they know at the time. And that's why the conclusions are always tentative - sometimes we learn something new that changes our mind. And that's a good thing. Stasis is a feature, generally, of wrong ideas.
The charge you leveled was that scientists knowingly ignore evidence that their theories are wrong. Again, is that a charge that you can substiantiate, or is that just something you're making up? Again, my experience with scientists - which is pretty considerable - is that I've never met a single one who would consider ignoring data simply because it would disprove their theory. Every single scientist I know has a considerably greater interest in getting it right than in proving their theories, and that's what we would expect - you often gain as much knowledge and acclaim from disproving a theory as proving it. Either way you learn something new. But if you fudge the data you learn nothing.
Do I think scientists are liars? Of course not.
Then why level a made-up charge of dishonesty? Remember that you just accused most scientists of knowingly falsifying their data or ommitting significant disconfirming evidence. Is that a charge you have evidence for, or are you just making things up?
Evolution was not accepted immediately and very well could be proven someday to be totally wrong, just as global cooling has at this point to be 'totally wrong'... but I believe the jury is still out.
On what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 4:24 PM Murphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 7:10 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 36 by nator, posted 02-20-2006 7:23 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 43 of 308 (288879)
02-20-2006 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Murphy
02-20-2006 7:54 PM


Re: speciation
I see it more as an adaptation than an evolvment into something new... like what happens when a larva turns into an adult.
That's not adaptation; that's metamorphosis, a programmed body development in the organism. Insects metamorph no matter what environment you place them in; adaptation is inherently environment-dependant.
If an earthworm were to become a winged or legged creature, with all the intermediate creatures exhibiting the changes in development, then I think scientists could state positively that evolution is no longer a theory.
Somehow I doubt it would be enough to satisfy your kind. Were we able to show you what you ask for, I doubt you would do anything but describe it as "adaptation", and complain that the worm did not evolve intelligence alongside.
Would it satisfy you to see observed evolution of multicelluarlity from single-celled organisms?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 7:54 PM Murphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 10:26 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 49 of 308 (288938)
02-20-2006 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Murphy
02-20-2006 10:26 PM


Re: speciation
What I said and gave an example of was changing from one type of creature into a different creature. Metamorphosis would be an example if it weren't the same life, just in different stages.
Evolution doesn't posit creatures changing into other creatures; evolution describes how populations change over time by means of descent with modification. So your example is an example of science fiction; organisms don't "morph" in evolution, they give rise to offspring that are slightly different than themselves. Which is, of course, exactly what we observe.
I asked if there were any definite changes into a different form that has been observed without big gaps that have to be filled by speculation.
Hundreds. For instance, the observed development of multicellularity from previously unicellular organisms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 10:26 PM Murphy has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 50 of 308 (288939)
02-20-2006 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Murphy
02-20-2006 10:38 PM


Re: speciation
If, as you say, life has evolved from simple animals to more complex, etc. why would a worm evolve into a legged or flying creature of some sort.
Because a population moved into an environment where adaptations such as legginess or flight were supremely beneficial.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 10:38 PM Murphy has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 253 of 308 (338263)
08-06-2006 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by The Tiger
07-28-2006 5:45 PM


You people are completely narrowminded and unopen to any other possibilities.
I'm open to whatever possibilities you can provide evidence for.
How about, instead of rolling up in here and psychoanalyzing a bunch of people you've never ever met, you read some posts first? How about instead of dismissing us as closeminded, you actually try to convince us with arguments and evidence?
Or is invective the best that you have?
Don't judge my level of knowledge ok, you don't know how much I've researched aznd read up on this subject.
How about you present some of that, ok?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by The Tiger, posted 07-28-2006 5:45 PM The Tiger has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 255 of 308 (338326)
08-07-2006 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Dr Adequate
08-06-2006 8:20 PM


Great post. Post of the Month material, in fact, except that the admins appear to be about seven days late in actually creating an August POTM thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-06-2006 8:20 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 283 of 308 (388045)
03-04-2007 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Lithodid-Man
03-04-2007 5:25 AM


Re: Evolution SHOULD be taught to preschoolers
My patience level for any ignorant retards trying to pass off Bronze age mythology as science is zero. Their ideology might well cost me my job.
Go through her classwork and start typing parts of it into Google. Doubtless she's committed academic dishonesty along the way. When you find something, petition to have her expelled.
She doesn't have the right to launch an ideological crusade to get you fired. Professors aren't the only ones whose academic background can fall under intense scrutiny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-04-2007 5:25 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 286 of 308 (388088)
03-04-2007 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by fooj
03-04-2007 3:02 PM


Re: Non-public schools are not required to teach evolution.
The discernable technological benefits are that biology makes sense in the light of evolution; geology makes sense in the light of the evolutionary timeline; and medicine makes sense in the light of genetics.
To assert that evolution is a theory with no technological benefits is nonsensical. The benefits of evolutionary biology are found in every field that deals with the world of living things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 3:02 PM fooj has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 4:00 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 288 of 308 (388098)
03-04-2007 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by fooj
03-04-2007 4:00 PM


Re: Non-public schools are not required to teach evolution.
Biology would exist with Darwin's theory;
But it doesn't make any sense without evolution. It's not predictive or explanitory without evolution; without evolution it's just a kind of stamp collecting.
Geology is just earth physics;
And it's "earth physics" that provides a great deal of support for evolution. The evolutionary timeline is necessary to explain the features of Earth's geology and to use geology for practical purposes (oil exploration, for instance. No oil exploration company employs creationist or "Biblical" geology.)
and medicine never needed Darwin's theory when DNA was discovered.
Genetics, again, is a part of evolution; and evolution is necessary to explain many of the features of genetics. To assert that evolution isn't useful to medicine is foolish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 4:00 PM fooj has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 301 of 308 (388151)
03-04-2007 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by fooj
03-04-2007 6:40 PM


Re: Non-public schools are not required to teach evolution.
(I believe photons are much faster than 186K-miles/sec.)
Based on what evidence? And if that's true, why is it that we've never observed a photon travelling faster than that speed?
You have a lot of ideas that don't bear any connection to the real world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 6:40 PM fooj has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 9:11 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 302 of 308 (388152)
03-04-2007 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by fooj
03-04-2007 9:00 PM


Re: Young Earth is simply Willful ignorance.
If it is not plausible fact as you say, noone will waste their time teaching it.
Nobody is. Does that tell you something, perhaps?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 9:00 PM fooj has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 304 of 308 (388156)
03-04-2007 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by fooj
03-04-2007 9:11 PM


Re: Non-public schools are not required to teach evolution.
Electrons have been observes to go very close to C, but photons are likely too fast to be seen going places.
In fact, measuring the speed of light is so easy, it's regularly done in class by undergraduate physics majors. All it takes is some mirrors. In fact, you can do it at home with a microwave and some chocolate:
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It's easy to measure the speed of light, and every time it'd done, they get the same result. What measurements have you done that lead you to believe it's faster?
Since light is either made of electrons or photon then light is either at the speed of C or much faster.
Light is known not to be electrons. You're really just making this up as you go along, aren't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 9:11 PM fooj has replied

Replies to this message:
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