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Author Topic:   XXXX Science
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 82 of 96 (387479)
02-28-2007 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Straggler
02-28-2007 8:36 AM


Re: XXXX Science and Mick's constraint
If Huxley's "anagenic" grade(s) ARE existant and can represent vicariant geographies no matter the monophyly generalized it is not clear to me that predetermined CONCLUSIONS are any worse off than terms of endearing descriptions.
So if vicariance biogeography is to give way to panbiogeography such as to "stew" Gould's juices for a new name to the then no longer persisting heterodoxy that Kitcher leaves Genesis Creationism as dead for, no matter the ID, it may be that "creation science" of Mick's denoting may NOT be wrong or effectively dead sounding but only a limitation as you said EVEN IF IT has "conclusions" built in. It will depend on whether the conclusions go too far of course... Creation Science would have to have something practical beyond the organization of new ways to teach theology etc.
The reason this second "if" may apply for me is that the phylogenetic disjunction in Huxley's sense that Gould wishes to "saltate" but may only be the praticum or purpose of future non-wrong creationist biology (and hence no difference for your "biological science" vs "creationist science") under the nonconclusive word "figure" detailed by LOGICAL restriction within anagensis that Gould simply OVERSTEPPED (both figuratively ,literally, and lingusitically/logostically) was where cladisitically (for me at least) the declination in illustatrations of Amphibian grades CAN NOT match Mammal or Bird Grades no matter the Fish in whatever the translation in space and form-making comparison. This would have to specify some specific biogeography AND the notion of BARAMIN would have to be practical where the word "species" would not thus then be (as artifical selection would have been applied and THEN IN CREATION BIOLOGY new hybrid decriptors enjoined while this would have to have been missed in a secular world of tomarrow land(whose to say how this will "pan" out..))...
Otherwise Mick would be correct that "creation biology" is just 'wrong' but this would not be because it was only looking for conclusions in line with THE BIBLE but because the models worked on did not fill the place that continues to wrongly proliferate the plethora of biological XXXXes as Mick listed.
I may be able to convince my self pretty quickly that creation biology is not going to be "wrong" in the sense that Mick implied but I do wonder whether the recent turn to biological research in creationism is going to help out where other seemingly non religious alternatives struggle for a voice...
quote:
In early 2006 Juan J. Morrone and Malte C. Ebach decided it was high time for a biogeographical society aimed at those academics, students and amateurs that are isolated from the publishing hubs of Europe and North America, where most of the learned “international” socities focus all their attention. After all, most biogeographical research is done by scientists living outside the USA or the EU.
Most western academics based in national institutions would find it unacceptable not to access to at least Nature and Science. Imagine a western European university or a North American natural history museum without a functioning photocopier, a decent library or access to any online journal. Unfortunately for most Latin American institutions this is a reality. Without proper access to resources and the difficulty of publishing in a foreign language such as English, most non-European and non-US biogeographers remain unheard.
The Systematic and Evolutioanry Biogoegraphical Association (SEBA) aims to provide a voice for biogeographers through...
On this scenario I am attempting to forecast "ideology" would expand but 'belief' may not. You were throwing too large a net and only catching minnows. Mick swam right through.
I have provided a link to SEBA at:
http://axiompanbiog.com/panbioglnks.aspx
Edited by Brad McFall, : phenotype(two excess letters)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Straggler, posted 02-28-2007 8:36 AM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by mick, posted 03-01-2007 4:45 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 84 of 96 (387653)
03-01-2007 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by mick
03-01-2007 4:45 AM


Re: XXXX Science and Mick's constraint
quote:
What makes you think that biogeographers in central america have any interest whatsoever in the ideologies of creationism or intelligent design? Do you mean that the discovery institute might be able to "buy converts" by targeting poor countries, or what?
Mick
SEBA is, at least for me, an extension of TAXACOM
http://listserv.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A0=taxacom&D=1&...
but made more specific in focus. Croizat wrote much his later works especially in SPANISH and Latin American Countires have an interest thus in his work that is not appreciated philosophically between the difference of “analysis and synthesis”.
Panbiogeographer John Grehan spoke “for” creationism in the sense that evolution is too much theory or as in this thread there are too many XXXXbiologies etc Here are three posts that contexualize separate creation in “historical” biogeography and later special creation was foiled against Darwin’s view in “Panbiogeography: Tracking the History of Life.”
quote:
Brian Jones makes a significant point, I think, when drawing attention to the
strong involvement of non-Scientists in formation and organization of
scientific
groups in the past. There also seemed to be a greater involvement by the
lay public. According to the book Heyday of Natural History the general public
would attend serious scientific presentations on the most obscure topics. Now
of course there are so many more alternatives. Perhaps on the positive side
many young children seem to be drawn to natural history one way or another,
and
even if they do not pusue this in later years, it may be responsible for
some of the "respect" science still receives among many adults, and this
attitude may be
transferred to the suceeding generation.
In relation to the Royal Society, my perception of the organization was
that it
had developed an elitist persona so I certainly did not join it. A few
meetings I
did attend were full of the stuffing of formality, rigidity and a certain
social order. That
may be fine for those for which such societies are a necessary prop in
climbing the
ladder, but it wasn't for me. This sense of social conservatism extended
into science itself with the NZ Royal Scociety, through its editorial
policies, being instrumental in the blackout and suppression of
panbiogeography. Not a healthy science culture.
I am in agreement that it is not sufficient to just complain about public
attitudes, and in my view it is necessary to change the way science is
taught, including evolutionary science.
As for the distinction Curtis Clark draws between science and religion, I
am not so sure. It seems to me that philosophers have a difficult time with
this demarkation also. As Lakatos pointed out, Popperian falsificationism
as a criterion of science can also be successfully applied to witchcraft.
John Grehan
quote:
http://listserv.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0008&L=ta...
quote:
>It seems like that would be true of any research program. "By their works
>you shall know them," but it's difficult to see how one would falsify
>methodology. Even the most sh*t-awful protocol can result in useful
>information, and an impeccable method applied to the wrong question can
>result in nothing.
>--
>Curtis Clark
I agree. Looking at evolution as a research program changes the context of
the debate as it is now more about what procedural activities take place in
consequence of adopting the research program, and what is the result. It is
my contention that some evolutionary methodology has resulted in
information that is not only 'useful' but novel in that it anticipated
future empirical discovery. This type of productivity is verifiable against
experience rather than involving philosophical debate. Whether or not
evolution is true or not in the greater scheme of reality (whatever that
is), as a scientific methodology, it works (and by 'it' I am referring to
the research program as a whole - some component research I would not
regard much higher than creationism).
John Grehan
quote:
http://listserv.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0108&L=ta...
quote:
>
>What's particularly disturbing to us here in Hawaii, one of the "hot-spots"
>of evolutionary research, is this wholly unexpected move by our DOE.
Given the cultural context of the debate in the US I fail to see how it
is 'unexpected.'
.
>Along these lines ("theory", etc.), in my draft testimonial to the Hawaii
>BOE, I state that the concept of "Evolution" (change in the structure or
>behavior of organisms over multiple generations) is actually a scientific
>*fact*, as it has been directly observed on small scales repeatedly, and
>indirectly observed on large scales through the fossil record.
More of the fact vs theory hasn't worked in the past so why should it in the
future? It also pits evolution as a kind of theology of the truth of the world
rather than a pathway of investigation.
>I further
>maintain that Natural Selection is the leading "Theory" to explain how the
>fact of biological evolution has led to a broad diversity of organisms that
>appear to be adapted to the environments in which they live.
Leading theory - read most popular.
>I further maintain in my draft testimonial that, in fact, the theory of
>evolution by natural selection does *not* relate to the "origin" of life;
>but rather to an explanation of the *diversity* of life. From my
>understanding, there is no extremely well-supported theory for the actual
>*origin* of life; only some interesting hypotheses supported in part by some
>compelling experiments.
Again more obscure philosophical theory.
John Grehan
quote:
http://listserv.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0107&L=ta...
NOW -
quote:
At 04:45 AM 7/28/01, Richard Pyle wrote:
>Along these lines ("theory", etc.), in my draft testimonial to the Hawaii
>BOE, I state that the concept of "Evolution" (change in the structure or
>behavior of organisms over multiple generations) is actually a scientific
>*fact*, as it has been directly observed on small scales repeatedly, and
>indirectly observed on large scales through the fossil record. I further
>maintain that Natural Selection is the leading "Theory" to explain how the
>fact of biological evolution has led to a broad diversity of organisms that
>appear to be adapted to the environments in which they live.
I think it is important to go on the offensive: If species are separately
created, a key element in the study of biology is to determine what were
the originally created species, and thus be able to address the question of
which similarities in modern organisms are the result of descent and which
are the result of design. Modern "creation science" has no research program
to address this seemingly fundamental question, despite the fact that such
research programs were the norm two centuries ago. In fact, modern
creationists often disagree about the limits of originally created species,
but without providing scientific evidence to back up their claims.
quote:
http://listserv.nhm.ku.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0107&L=ta...
So, if there IS an operational issue that biogeographiers are attempting to solve and if creationists can operationalize their academy AT THE PLACE that vicariance and separate creation speak of THE SAME disjunction (but different potential when not actual barriers) then indeed we are at the place of asking either with you that creation biology is wrong or is providing an alternative mode of thought capable of distheorizing evolutionary thought long enough for it to improve in the same phenotype.
The issue HERE sans genetics is over Croizat’s “recombination” of characters. Some accused Croizat of willingly accepting polyphyly but if form not only would be coincidentally the same for better analytic biogeographers than we have synthetic biologists then the recombination of characters across space may have implications for non-US biogeograhers who insist that North America be divided into west and east AND creationists who find the baramin IN THE SECULAR accusations against polyphyletic operationalism. My reference/claim to grades of amphibians vs mammals divides in this possibility but as I have suggested a full biogeography of the turtle genus Clemmys should resolve the whole c/e issue for me at least.
Next, one needs to operationalize the genetic elements of creationism and recombination of characters but this work I did not do nor did I look lately for creationist work that may assist. Different definitions of “hybrids” based on DNA may help and though without this or some such evidence about what ICR is doing with GENE I DO agree with you that creation science is wrong.
It is not that creationists would get “converts” by buying photocopiers for the research station on Lac Tumba in Zaiire (I was there, they have very very little) but that comparative biology of the new space, time and form begun in New Zeland and Latin America may expand to its proper sphere in US and EU science as the comparisons are tried operationally beyond simple science to include the nair fictional ideas of creationism secondly falsified but with beliefs of those doing the work remaining intact.
I find that Gould's writings are immiscible with this possiblity even though on specific points I think his discontinuty with past adapationism etc are more valuable than simple reductionist XXXXes.
I am indicating that the dichtomy of "descent" OR "design" (as the non-John poster of Taxacom said,)would be widened not constricted or hardened on my sythetic view. There may be design without baramins if creationsist can not do better than Huxley's "chalk" but the board may remain as blank as SEBA if people like Kitcher(in "Living with Darwin") attempt to rephrase seperate creation in terms of cave insect morpholgy in Europe vs the US(and elite's like Provine are not reading this material etc) as THIS IS the temporality that these biogeographers CAN SPEAK towards but may not be creation wise contrary to the divarication between design and descent that artifical orthoselections may empirically support in the future.
I for one was stopped from becoming an evolutionist not by any oppression for or against thinking about evolution (or creationism0 but by preventing me from operationalizing my thoughts - no degree, no paper, no job...
There is no doubt (I doubt this would be questioned) that I give as much or more thought to biological change and form-making than many biology graduates.
ICR is just now operationalizing a new on-line technical journal. Perhaps in the near future the result will not be to read some speculative scenario by me on EvC or SEBA but here with actual changes having already occurred regardless of the ideology (in or out of 'science'.)
quote:
Furthermore, we have just instituted a new online technical journal. The lead article of this issue of Acts & Facts calls for papers to be submitted. Because of all this, the creation message, and thus creation ministry, has never been stronger.
quote:
The Need for ICR's Research Program | The Institute for Creation Research
Edited by Brad McFall, : letter "n"
Edited by Brad McFall, : logical adjustment
Edited by Brad McFall, : personal disclosure
Edited by Brad McFall, : ICR link

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by mick, posted 03-01-2007 4:45 AM mick has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2007 11:18 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 86 of 96 (387968)
03-03-2007 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Straggler
03-03-2007 11:18 AM


Re: XXXX Science and Mick's constraint
I will be looking for some sort of resolution between the "ecological" difference of Price and Clark
I am not sure where in here
Creationist "Flood Geology" Versus Common Sense
is
quote:
Creationist "Flood Geology" Versus Common Sense Creationist "Flood Geology" Vs Common Sense by Edward T. Babinski ... Clark wrote to Price: The rocks do lie in a much more definite sequence than we have ...
Creationist "Flood Geology" Versus Common Sense - 66k
and perhaps something about biology and creation NOT dependent simply on how organisms drown at varying depths. Something more about the creationist observation that plants and animals "go extinct" IN DIFFERENT HORIZONS. If they relate baramins (FORM) to hybrids (FORM MAKING)to differences in the relation of gene combinations per individual vs gene frequencies in (sub)species within a kind(TRANSLATION IN SPACE) based on genomics they may FIRST be able to resolve purely logical puzzles Kant put forth on a syllogism on the matter or form of the “soul” which when telescoped throughout a specific purpose and math of symmetry might torque restrictions ON THE PROXIMITY (of Gould’s “bush” of life) TO MAIN MASSINGS rather than to as is current (statistical differences in arbitrary allometry). Thus they may be able to cash out arbitrary anatomy for a matterless soul.
The details as I have them I have just uploaded at:
http://www.axiompanbiog.com/steps.aspx
(diagram of main massing contrary to Gould's "proximate")
The problem with special creation is about islands NOT being populated by immigration vs. extinction (island biogeography) but migration vs. recombination according to the "science" I am looking forward THROUGH but because Price and Clark differed I have not seen since Sherwin got to ICR that this issue was focused on and thus if for instance Creationists focused on recombination before (the) fall and "migration" after the flood/catastrophe they might be able to raise the tenor of general discussions on biogeography of "spatial logic" to where say simple assumptions about long-distance dispersal to Hawaii are not simply assumed as is standard today. The effect of creationism may not "hit" its principle 'target' but a third party instead.
This is currently confounded by temporality that reaches back beyond the Eocene but rarely is it possible to be even THAT confident about difference(s) between the Cretaceous and Jurassic as one might be in the dismissive of Agassiz's glacial periods(LOL). If creationists start to become hyper logicians and realize that the 2nd wall problem of evolution coming from within secular universities need not be a target of technical discussions perhaps we will see two birds (or clines) killed with one stone. I mean that quite literally where "call" might substitute for the cultural war term "kill".
By the way, I really only wanted to know if Mick agreed with your dichotomy or not, not what I thought the future would betray. It would not be science not because there is no science in it but by the way the science is developed. If it could be otherwise I would prefer but I have no confidence in that.
Edited by Brad McFall, : upload finished!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2007 11:18 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2007 7:52 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 88 of 96 (387976)
03-03-2007 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Straggler
03-03-2007 7:52 PM


Re: ???Genius or Lunatic???
Yes but I probably would need to scan some material to cover "the bases" (and I still have not uploaded the pages I just worked up this afternoon).
Your question seemed to me to be, "How can ICR's new on-line journal be science if they continue to do Bible Based "research" OR how can it NOT BE SCIENCE if that is what the journal is to produce?" It seems like a catch-22 question, one that no 5th grader could answer! And it was 'deftly' crafted across a "line-break" to boot. If that leaves you wanting let me know that I misunderstood your question, please.
It seems to me that one can DO whatever it is that creationists DO in purely "logical" frame of mind. What one often finds justly criticizable on EVC and elsewhere in blogs etc is when rationality is substituted for simple belief. I was trying to point to an issue in evolutionary theory where I feel that more rigor is needed (and I can rewrite the "science" part for you over$over again if that is necessary) and how technical creationism may out of sheer opening of more on-line discussions provide an expandable horizon that non-creationists are desireous to fill and could or should if in so doing Biblical Creationists knocked off some current standard evolutionary theory for the heterodox depauperization in the wings. Creationists would make further theological hermenutics no doubt that pays for evoltionist advance and so yoked we may have a better creation science and science without creationists. This has always been my point on EVC. I see no reason why creation and evolution generically can not work together to further biology where technical expressions overreach.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2007 7:52 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2007 4:20 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 90 of 96 (388109)
03-04-2007 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Straggler
03-04-2007 4:20 PM


Re: ???Genius or Lunatic???
If this is a question about being a genius or crazy then perhaps it should be part of the All About Brad 2 thread in the Coffee house...
else,
Are you familiar with the "two model" distinction rasied early in ICR history and continuing now-a-days when creationists will speak about, "given the evolutionary model..." or "following creation...."?
Do you recognize this difference or is it part of your question where you ask IF they can be logical and if what is done is it not science simplicter??
I can dig up a few examples if you like, but on any reading of creationist literature one finds pretty readily these "different hypotheses". What Mick is saying is that the creationist ones are simply 'wrong' rather than being simply specialized, as occurs amongst the numerous domains of secular science so-called. Phillip Kitcher calls them "dead" such that no resurrection man can raise. Hence why the Taxacom discussion said "there is no creationist research program". ICR however seems day by day to be changing in this regard.
I was suggesting that "irrational" faith based extensions of the denotable syntax of science can serve a needed logical extension even if whatever it may hypothesize is falisfied secondarily, as a scientist's inuition might percolate. It seemed that Mick's list caused you speak of "description" vs "preconclusive" and I simply challenged THAT back towards the OP.
I think that the extension IS MOSTLY or ALL on the creationist side so I find that the burden IS on them, which is why I cited the need for a working praxis as well as any newer theology. Mick was challenging that THIS can exist. But if the extension is done in a purposive way directed to specifically possible natural products the side effect may indeed be a change in science itself. I base this on a decided difference of opinion with Bertrand Russell on Kant's Critique of Pure Reason's transcendental asthetic NOT being dismantled with non-euclidean geometry where geometry relates to spatial logic in biogeography(admittedly not available to Russell in his time), but that may be peculiar and so far isolated to me.
Edited by Brad McFall, : couple sentences
Edited by Brad McFall, : adverb

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2007 4:20 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2007 5:29 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 92 of 96 (388116)
03-04-2007 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Straggler
03-04-2007 5:29 PM


Release answer the question.
Well, are you questioning the logical need vs the use of logical thought itself?
If the former you would need me to scan in the argument of Kant first, which I mentioned in this thread but have not provided, if the latter that is not my problem if you cant answer the question.
DO YOU- Straggler, recognize the difference or not, when a creationist writes, "Evolution by a million years imples this..." and "Creation based on 6,000 years is looking for that..."
YES OR NO-
You do not need to ask the specious question about my personality for YOU to answer that!!!
You are being too cynical even for anti-Americanisms. If you can not devolve into "chat" mode at some point, what is the point or purpose of posting at all?
Edited by Brad McFall, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2007 5:29 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2007 6:22 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 94 of 96 (388122)
03-04-2007 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Straggler
03-04-2007 6:22 PM


Re:back to the future OP
Sorry,
I was getting a little frustrated with you.
I now understand the problem, thanks.
I do not set out to be hard to understand.
Yes there was only one question.
AND yes, inferring logical conclusions from a premise is not in itself science. Yes, I agree.
What you need to see from me is the discussion by Kant applied to anagenesis. I can do this either in this thread or in the one undermy name. It will not happen today. Thank you for answering. As I just answered, I DO know what is missing. Thanks again.
As for the OP...
Does the very need to prefix the word science with a label that indicates predetermined conclusions indicate a complete lack of objectivity and therefore make the "science" in question wholly unscientific?
It might simply indicate "prejudice" as opposed to a lack of objectivity. I can expand on that later.
quote:
Is XXXX Science actually a contradiction in terms?
(where XXXX is any ideology or belief system you care to think of)
It may if I fullfill my answer to your first question. That will come later but given that Mick had you specify a difference of description vs prescription I think that no matter what it will NOT become a "contradiction" in logical terms. The descriptive result for prejudicial prejudgments is different is not the same as prescripting the determination. This assumes the reflexion is finished. It may not be. More later on this as well.
In a very general sense I agree with you sans Mick's post that XXXXScience is predeterminative but then we would need a scientific establishment that really is open to the differing personal horizons and differing lengths of reflective judgment periods. I did not expereicne this. Creationism tends to extend this non-determinative quality.
In the best of all possible worlds I would agree with you. I do not live in such.
Edited by Brad McFall, : subtitle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2007 6:22 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Straggler, posted 03-05-2007 5:22 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 96 of 96 (399445)
05-05-2007 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Straggler
03-05-2007 5:22 PM


Re: Re:back to the future OP
Below is the content I promised to discuss with you.
You can ignore the marginal comments. That is what I have to explain to you. Do notice however where on the pic above I labeled two terms (third pic below) within Kant's (Introduction to Logic) lecture. I am working on the "scientific" response. The lecture was published by the Philosophical Library in 1963. I intend the word "form" to remain homogenous in Kant's sense and as used to point towards the shapes of living things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Straggler, posted 03-05-2007 5:22 PM Straggler has not replied

  
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