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Author Topic:   Should Evolution and Creation be Taught in School?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 308 (288876)
02-20-2006 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Murphy
02-20-2006 7:41 PM


Re: Duplication etc.
If you've been following the research related to global warming, a mini or even major Ice Age is one of the most likely outcomes.
But that has nothing to do with whether the topic except it shows we really don't do a good enough job of teaching or reporting science.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Murphy, posted 02-20-2006 7:41 PM Murphy has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 120 of 308 (312024)
05-15-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by simple
05-15-2006 3:33 AM


Fortunately, the US was designed to protect us from the Majority.
Tolerance must include the will of the majority. Not should include. MUST. Capice?
It is only the intolerant fundamentalists that so misunderstand both the Laws of the US and also what Tolerance means. In the US such complete intolerance is pretty much limited right now to Christian Fundamentalist, but over time has been exhibited by other bigotted exclusionary groups.
The funny thing is that they are also the ones whining the loudest about their rights being infringed while they trample on the rights of all others. If the Christian Right was not so dangerous they could be simply dismissed as a lunatic fringe. But they are not, they are also a large segment of the US population, and they are beginning to infect the rest of the world as well.
They are paranoid and delusional, and exclusionary even within there on small intolerant world. They claim to speak for Christianity, yet when it is pointed out to them that not only does much of Christianity not only accept that Evolution happened, that the TOE is the best explanation so far and that teaching Biblical Creationism is not just bad science, it is a perversion of Christianity and even worse theology, their response is almost invariably to pont to other examples of their own bigotry and intolerance. They claim that "those are not real christians" or "look at those groups and you'll find they also do not consider homosexuality and abomination".
Capice?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 3:33 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 308 (312071)
05-15-2006 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by EZscience
05-15-2006 2:38 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
...and I truly doubt you speak for the majority of Christians with this kind of extremism anyway, but I guess I'll have to wait for one to show up and tell you so. Although you've probably embarassed most of them by now...
See Message 126.
Biblical Creationism is simply silly. It can only be accepted by those who are unwilling or unable to actually examine evidence. They must wilfully remain ignorant to stay Biblical Creationists. They do NOT represent Christianity any more than the few Christians that dance with poisonous snakes or drink poisons represent Christianity.
I happen to think it's a good idea to teach Creation in public schools. We need to teach all of the creation myths so that students can see the similarities among all mythos, the common thread among early man to try to explain the world around them. It is a good basic platform for them to stand upon as they then go on to discover how GOD actually did it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2006 2:38 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 133 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 11:18 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 138 of 308 (312267)
05-15-2006 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by simple
05-15-2006 11:18 PM


Re: What's to teach ?
whisper writes:
No, your opinion is silly.
A profound post if there ever was one.
The FACTS are that Biblical Creationism does NOT represent the viewpoint of Christianity. In fact, every major US Christian Church has come out against teaching Biblical Creatioism and in support of teaching the FACT of Evolution and that the TOE is the best explanation of what happened so far.
One piece of evidence in support of that position is the Clergy Project, where over 10,000 US Christian Clergy have signed an open letter saying:
We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.
For you to come here and make assertions we usually expect some form of support. Now I have provided support for the assertion that the Christian position is that Evolution is Fact and that the TOE is the best explanation and the one that should be taught.
This is not a Christian vs Evolution issue. The issue is whether or not a subject that has NO supporting evidence, Biblical Creationism, should be taught.
I personally think that it should be. It, along with all of the other creation myths, to include the two different and mutually exclusive creation myths found in the Bible, should be taught. That way the kids can learn very early on to recognize mythos when they come across it. Myths are important. They give us a glimpse into the thinking of early man and the Biblical Creation Myths are very good examples.
In the Bible we find two different Creation Myths, with two entirely different depictions of God. In the older myth, the one found in Genesis 2 & 3, we find a God very much like the other primitive Gods of the period. The God of Genesis 2 & 3 is very human, slightly more powerful but still a child modeling things in clay by the riverbank.
In the later story, the one found in Genesis 1 we find a completely different God. That God is far removed from mere humanity, and creates by and act of will alone. Gone is all the stuff about a Garden of Eden, or serpent, or magical trees. Gone is the fall and in this version of creation, all is very good.
Teach both myths. Show the kids how the story changed over time. Compare it to the other creation myths from the era, the area and all time, all places, all peoples. Teach the kids to recognize mythos. Then, they will be prepared to go on and learn what really happened, how GOD really did it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by simple, posted 05-15-2006 11:18 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by simple, posted 05-16-2006 12:19 AM jar has replied
 Message 141 by simple, posted 05-16-2006 12:19 AM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 142 of 308 (312286)
05-16-2006 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by simple
05-16-2006 12:19 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
The issue is not just what people believe. Frankly that is pretty much nonsense. What I produced is a document signed by 10,000 Christian Cleregy in the US. That is a selection, a very large sample, of the very people who should know the issue best. It is not a man on the street opinion poll, I fully realize how absolutely useless they are, but rather a sample from the very people best suited to judge whether or not the idea of Biblical Creationism can be supported. US Christian Clergy.
And it can't.
It doesn't matter how many people believe in the GOE fable. There is no evidence it ever existed. It doesn't matter how many people believe that there was a world-wide flood. The evidence is overwhelming that it never happened.
So teach the myths, all the myths, and let the kids learn to identify mythos when they run across it. Then they will be prepared to move on to learn what really happened, how GOD really did it.
And about your reading of Genesis. Right, sure. Sorry Charlie, it's two stories, from two eras and two peoples. The two tales are mutually exclusive. We have lots of threads on the Genesis Myths. Feel free to take the discussion of them there.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by simple, posted 05-16-2006 12:19 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 145 by simple, posted 05-17-2006 12:13 AM jar has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 148 of 308 (312647)
05-17-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by simple
05-17-2006 12:13 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
Says who? I say let them pray, and learn about the majority beliefs of their country. If any solid science absolutlely disproves something, that is another matter. But science does not touch the virgin birth, heaven, or the ressurection, or a host of other things.
Correct. It doesn't touch those things. It does though touch young earth, that's as phony as a three dollar bill. And it does touch on the flood, that just never happened. And it does touch on the conquest of Canaan, never happened as told in the book.
Evolution and the TOE are not anti-Christian. They do not show that there is no GOD, or that GOD does not care about us. All they show is How God Did It.
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by simple, posted 05-17-2006 12:13 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by simple, posted 05-17-2006 1:21 AM jar has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 152 of 308 (312763)
05-17-2006 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by simple
05-17-2006 1:21 AM


Re: What's to teach ?
The topic of the thread is whether Evolution and Creation Myths should be taught in school. My position is "Yes, we should tech the Creation Myths so that the kids have a basic understanding of Mythos. Then they will be better prepared to learn what really happened."
If you have some other opinion, please present your best case in support of your position so that the readers may judge. So far all you have presented is some appeal to majority rule, and some claims that Biblical Creationism is the Christian Position. The former is refuted by the fact that the US is designed to protect us from the tyranny of a majority and the later by the fact that over 10,000 US Christian Clergy have publicaly endorsed teaching the Theory of Evolution and opposing teaching Biblical Creationism.
If you have anything else to support whatever position it is you're hawking, this is a good place to bring it out.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by simple, posted 05-17-2006 1:21 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 250 of 308 (336151)
07-28-2006 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by The Tiger
07-28-2006 5:45 PM


I don't think anyone is saying that Science and Creation are mutually exclusive. What is being said is that Biblical Creationism and Young Earth have been UTTERLY refuted and should be treated as any other myth.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by The Tiger, posted 07-28-2006 5:45 PM The Tiger has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 273 of 308 (387998)
03-03-2007 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Always Curious
03-03-2007 11:42 PM


Only if you want to lie to the kids.
When a boy becomes fascinated by dinosaurs, like many do, they will probably pick up a book and I am willing to bet that 99.5% of the time the words "millions and millions of years ago" will be within the first couple of pages. I strongly believe that such comments as that should be avoided.
You only want to avoid stuff like "millions of years" if you want to lie to the kids.
Evolution, creationism, and everything that pertains to the same basic idea should be explored together in a science class each getting equal attention. This would allow the students to actually think for themselves on a controversial topic instead of being made to learn that evolution is a "fact".
Of course, evolution IS a fact. That is simply not even in doubt.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Always Curious, posted 03-03-2007 11:42 PM Always Curious has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 282 of 308 (388040)
03-04-2007 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by fooj
03-04-2007 9:10 AM


Re: Non-public schools are not required to teach evolution.
While it is true that private schools do not have to teach Evolution, they really should unless they are committed to imposing a cult of ignorance on the students. The Facts are that Evolution happened, that the Earth is something over 4 billion years old and the universe over 14 billion years old.
Any school which teaches that Evolution is not a fact or that the Universe is young is simply teaching falsehoods. There is no other way to say it.
These are not matters of opinion. Reality is not determined by opinion. Reality is.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 9:10 AM fooj has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 3:02 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 290 of 308 (388104)
03-04-2007 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by fooj
03-04-2007 3:02 PM


Re: Non-public schools are not required to teach evolution.
A theory (aka strong conclusion) which brings with it no discernable technological benefits cannot be a fact.
Sorry but the age of the universe is not a theory. It is though, a very strong conclusion, strong enough to use the description I included.
While in science we never "prove" anything conclusively true, we can disprove things.
Those things which are proven to be false, must be abandoned. That includes things like a Young Earth or Universe. They are simply wrong and so we put them aside.
Second, the theories such as the Theory of Evolution (as opposed to the Fact that Evolution happened) certainly do have "discernable[sic] technological benefits". The whole field of Genetics is based on the Theory of Evolution; all of modern geology is based on an old earth; all of astronomy is based on an old Universe. The fact that we can use other animals to test new drugs is based on the fact that they are related to us.
While the Theory of Evolution is only the best explanation so far of how Evolution happened, and that we know the theory will change as new information comes to light, we will not go backwards to those things that have been shown to be false.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 3:02 PM fooj has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 294 of 308 (388137)
03-04-2007 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by fooj
03-04-2007 6:40 PM


Young Earth is simply Willful ignorance.
The method for decoding DNA comes with genes, thus I disagree that genetics is based upon Darwin's Theory of evolution.
Sorry, but DNA was simply another step in the field of Genetics. Unfortunately for the Biblical Creationists and the Young Earth supporters, it is just another nail in the Coffin of Ignorance called YEC and Biblical Creationism. Two really big things came with the discovery and partial decoding of DNA. One is the fact that every living thing is related. But the second biggest thing is that DNA totally destroyed any hope that there was ever a world-wide flood or a single creation where all kinds were made in a short period of time.
In one very short period of time the Noachian Flood and Special Creation were totally disproved by the most unexpected means.
If either of those had been true, there would be indications of such a bottleneck in the DNA and the bottleneck would be the same for EVERY species. Well, bottlenecks can be seen, but they are all at different periods in the past.
Lastly, while the theory of Gold's and the nuclear plasmologist are technically discoveries made by two evolutionists, they fit in well with a young earth creationist model.
Again, since no one has EVERY presented a Young Earth Creationist Model, it doesn't much matter. In addition, simply fitting with some model does not add much support. What supports the absolute FACT of Evolution and Old Earth, even older Universe, is that many, many different lines of question all lead to the same conclusions.
Young Earth or Biblical Creationism should only be taught in schools as examples of really bad science and as clear examples both of how Science rejects pseudoscience and as how ignorant people can be persuaded to believe absolute nonsense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 6:40 PM fooj has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 9:00 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 305 of 308 (388158)
03-04-2007 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by fooj
03-04-2007 9:00 PM


Re: Young Earth is simply Willful ignorance.
The worldwide flood was not dependent on any DNA bottlenecks. Rather bottlenecks would prevent a good outcome from a flood which is described in genesis.
Genetic bottlenecks are what would be seen in the genes IF the Flood had ever happened.
DNA became limited by change in atmosphere, and inbreeding became a problem.
Sorry but there is NO indication of any major changes in at least the last in atmosphere. And there is absolute proof that there have been insignificant changes in genetics of humans, plants and animals or in the atmosphere going back over 6000 years. Check out Oetzi who if the Genesis Myths were true, lived at the time Adam would have been alive.
I think you are overeacting. If it is not plausible fact as you say, noone will waste their time teaching it. You also have failed to show how genetics can be random. Since the tools for decoding are in the organism and since 'primates' are not like bugs, they could not have speciated into human beings. There is no mechanism in the sperm of apes and primates to suggest the ability to speciate.
Good Lord. How much misinformation can you stuff into one paragraph?
There is NOTHING in there that is not simply nonsense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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