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Author Topic:   Jesus Tomb Found
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
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Message 3 of 242 (387122)
02-26-2007 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
02-26-2007 11:54 AM


Maybe it's something stupid like Ron Wyatt's claim to have found Jesus' blood. I suspect it's not quite that silly, though. But it's the same guy who was behind the "Exodus Decoded" rubbish so expect lots of misrepresentations of the evidence.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 242 (387165)
02-26-2007 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
02-26-2007 4:22 PM


Under the circumstances I don't think that this crew could even manage to convince me.
But you're right. I don't think you could convince even most Christians with merely good evidence, and nothing would convince the fundamentalists.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 34 of 242 (387338)
02-28-2007 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2007 6:57 PM


quote:
We know from Biblical and extra biblical sources that Jesus was in fact an incredibly controversial figure at that time.
This is highly questionable. The only extra-Biblical source I know of that mentions Jesus in the context of his times is the contested reference in Josephus. Even if it is partly genuine Jesus is still not that important a figure, mentioned only in passing.
quote:
All parties involved knew that Jesus preached that He would raise from the dead and discussed how to secure the tomb with guards
This probably isn't true. It isn't even in all the Gospels. Likely the author of "Matthew" (whoever he was) added the guards.
quote:
Once it was discovered that the tomb was in fact empty, the charge fell on the guards as a story of Jesus' disciples must have come and stolen the body from inept Roman centurians. Why? Because they couldn't deny that His tomb was empty and had to come up with an alternative explanation.
We have no reliable evidence that this is the case. We don't have any accounts from non-Christian sources or even true contemporary sources. We don't even have a clear reference to the Empty Tomb story prior to Mark (itself written about 30 years after the events and likely second-hand at best). While the resurrection might have been important to Christianity the story isn't mentioned before then and the accounts we have don't clearly match - seeming instead to be elaborated and developed from whatever origin it had (which may not be any factual basis).
quote:
The fact that the Jewish leaders never denied that Jesus' tomb was empty, but only tried to explain it away is compelling evidence that the tomb was in fact empty.
It might be, if we knew it to be a fact. But we don't. Even if it were a fact it still doesn't establish what happened to the body.
quote:
That brings me to the tomb. We know where the tomb of Jesus was. This hasn't recently surfaced. We've known this since the day He died. He was laid to rest in what is now known as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is an early church that venerated the site by building a church surrounding the tomb.
Or is it the Garden Tomb ? The fact is that we don't know that either of them was the tomb, nor can we even be certain that there was a tomb.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2007 6:57 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 4:48 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 38 of 242 (387383)
02-28-2007 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2007 11:30 AM


quote:
I can't speak for you Chiro, but what I can do is simply notice the fanfare when something turns up concerning Jesus. If it corroborates the gospel, there will be no fanfare. If something even as cryptic as the gospel of Judas turns up in Egypt or a tomb that they want to believe is Jesus' is found, respectable magazines like the National Geographic is quick to jump all over it. It shows the motivation of the authors and editors.
So far as I can see this isn't true - and that you would claim it speaks more to your agenda. What major finds did you have in mind ? The James Ossuary was pretty widely hyped, for instance. Aren't you counting that one ?

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 53 of 242 (387486)
02-28-2007 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2007 4:48 PM


quote:
There are quite a few references of Jesus just by Josephus alone. The one you are referring looks suspicious to me to. The others are not. Secondly, there are far more references to Jesus than only Josephus. I have listed four sources, but there are many others.
I am not counting references to Jesus. I am only counting those that could potentially support your claim that Jesus was a controversial figure in his own time. Tacitus, for instance only says that Jesus was the originator of Christianity. That is why I did not say "references to Jesus" but "...in the context of his time".
quote:
Every gospel mentions the resurrection of Jesus. As for the guards, why wouldn't His tomb be guarded since He claimed beforehand that He would rise again.
But NOT all mention guards ! Your remaining sentence is circular - having tried to use the supposed guards as evidence that the authorities knew of the claims that Jesus would rise from the dead now you are trying to use the assertion that the authorities knew of claims that Jesus would rise form the dead to support your claims of guards !
Sorry, but you can't use your conclusion to support your supposed evidence !
quote:
First of all, we do have contemporary writings. The Sanhedrin recorded His death.
The piece you quote is found in the Babylonian Talmud. It probably dates form the 2nd Century, not the 1st. If it is a contemporay account and an offical record as you claim - unlikely as it is - then it must be consdiered an accurate account fo the events, at least where matters of fact are concerned. Which indicates that either the Gospel accounts contain significant erorrs - or it is about a different person altogether.
So which is it ?
A late and inaccurate account of Jesus ?
A contemporary and accurate account of Jesus' execution, contradicting the Gospels ?
An account of the execution of someone else entirely ?
None of these seem to offer much help to your position.
(See here for more Talmud )
quote:
Therefore, we see that Jesus was crucified for supposedly leading others away from the Law and for sorcery. This corroborates the gospels magnificently as we see extra-biblical evidence of His miracles and of His teachings, even though He did NOT teach against the Law.
Except for the 40 days searching for witnesses for his defence prior to the ececution.
Or the execution being carried out by Jewish authorities and not Roman
Or being stoned and hanged instead of being crucified.
quote:
As for Josephus, he was born 3 years after His death and resurrection, making Him contemporary with Mark, Luke, John, and Matthew. Why do you select what is authoritative an what is not?
If Josephus was born after the event - which he was - then he cannot be a true contemporary of the event. I cannot answer your question because it makes no sense.
quote:
here is far more evidence to suggest that not only Jesus existed, but that He was a controversial figure, respected by many, despised by many more, and that He was martyred on that account.
As your link demonstrates the evidence is so short that Christian apologists are redueced to desparate efforts like "the origin of the Christian movement in Jerusalem would have been impossible without the empty tomb." Which is simply untrue. I could point out that Elvis' tomb is occupied but people have still claimed to have seen him after his death. We really do not know much about that period because we do not have any truly reliable accounts - or any reasonably detailed non-Christian accounts to balance what we have from the later Christian sources.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2007 4:48 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-01-2007 5:13 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 89 of 242 (387601)
03-01-2007 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by arachnophilia
03-01-2007 12:48 PM


Re: Decrees
If the account is anti-Chrisitan polemic it might have got the idea from Lent. But really there is no way to portray both it and the Gospels as trustworthy account of the execution of Jesus.

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 Message 88 by arachnophilia, posted 03-01-2007 12:48 PM arachnophilia has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 98 of 242 (387646)
03-01-2007 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Hyroglyphx
03-01-2007 5:13 PM


Re: Jesus: Is he, or isn't he?
quote:
Those are in the context of His time.
Which extra Biblical sources, other than Josephus deal with Jesus the man in the context of HIS time ? Tacitus certainly doesn't. Which extra-Biblical sources indicate that Jesus was the controversial figure you claim ?
quote:
As for Tacitus, I'm sorry, but that is considered contemporary in the grand scheme of time.
i.e. Tacitus says nothing relevant to the point so you are going to waffle abotu the "grand scheme of time" to try and evade the actual point at issue.
quote:
That's what is annotated in the gospels
In Matthews Gospel. And we have no idea where it came from. It could easily have been made up. And that doesn't change the fact that your argument is circular. You tried to use one claim to support another - and when you couldn't do that you just turned it on it's head. It's completely invalid reasoning.
quote:
Substantiate your claim, please.
I provided substantiation in the link in my post.
quote:
How can you believe in Occam's Razor and say that Jesus was not an actual figure in human history?
I didn't say that. What I said - as your quote confirms - is that it is unlikely that your quote from the Babylonian Talmud is an official contemporary account of the execution of Jesus. Those are very different claims.
quote:
There is no inaccuracy that could pin down either way.
The 40 day period between trial and execution. Execution by stoning. Execution by the Jews. These are clear conflicts with the Gospe accounts.
l
quote:
The disciples may not have known about it.
They wouldn't have known about a public call for witnesseses after Jesus' arrest and trial ? For 40 days ? 40 days which aren't even mentioned inthe Bible which puts the arrest and trial the day before the execution ?
quote:
But every other historian does mention it.
So every "other historian" says that Jesus wasn't executed by the Romans ? Which other historians ? And why do you believe them rather than the Gospels ?
quote:
Do you believe that Pontious Pilate never existed either? Because he's mentioned all over the place. So was Ananias who was the Chief Priest the year Jesus was crucified. Do you believe in his existence?
Please explain why my doubts over the idea that your quote from the Babylonian Talmud is an accurate and contemporary account of the execution of Jesus require me to doubt either of these things ? Your question makes no sense and seems to be a crude attempt at poisoning the well.
quote:
Yeah, 'cause every one takes that seriously. Last time I checked he was on an island in the Caribbean living large with Biggie and Tupac. There is no way Christianity would have survived without the body being gone, because like all bad rumors, without any real basis, it will fizzle out and die.
You mean like the Jehovahs Witnesses failed and disappeared after all their prophecies of the end of the world failed to occur. Obviously they couldn't keep going after that. Like Scientology failed and died when L Ron Hubbards claims of miraculous healing were exposed as lies. Your claim is amply shown to be false by the fact that other religions have survived equally bad failures.
And in fact we don't know what happened back then. The events woud have been rewritten and reinterpreted in the decades betweeen the time they happened and the Gosepls were actually written. We don't see any mention of an empty tomb in Paul's writings. If it is so essential why did he not mention it ?
quote:
Then you must discount all of history that predates this time with the same imperiousness.
Obviously not. It is hardly unknown for there to be sources from different viewpoints. And much of history deals with events where archaeological evidence is also available. No responsible historian would uncritically rely on partisan accounts from one side in the absence of other evidence. There is no problem with my viewpoint - it is the only rational one. And the only reason that you disparage it is because you want me to uncritically accept the partisan sources that YOU prefer.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-01-2007 5:13 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-03-2007 1:42 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 105 of 242 (387711)
03-02-2007 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by AnswersInGenitals
03-02-2007 4:55 AM


Re: Whats in the coffins?
Supposedly they have been able to determine (through mitochondrial analysis) that the "Jesus" and a "Mary" (the one that is supposedly Mary Magdalene) don't share a maternal lineage. And that's it. Not much to go on.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 137 of 242 (387969)
03-03-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Hyroglyphx
03-03-2007 1:42 PM


Re: Jesus: Is he, or isn't he?
quote:
The Babylonian Talmud. I already referenced it. Secondly, not only does Josephus make mention of Jesus as an historical figure, but he also names central figures in the Bible.
As you know it is far from certain that the Babylonian Talmud is about the Jesus of the Bible. Nor does it depict him as an especially controversial figure - nobody would defend him.
Your references to Josephus are irrelevant sicne Jospehus is the one source that does apparently mention Jesus in context although the only passage that could support your claim is contentious and is probably at least partially - and quite possibly wholly - a Christian interpolation.
quote:
Get over it, He existed. You can say that he's dead. You can say that he is not the son of God. All this you can say with a reasonable amount of suspicion. What you can't claim is that He never existed.
That is one thing I didn't say. I even told you as much in the message you are replying to. Why do you feel the need to misrepresent me ?
quote:
Tacitus wrote about Jesus only 50 years after his death and resurrection, but somehow that isn't considered contemporary enough for you.
You mean 80 years after Jesus' death, written by a man born 20 years after Jesus' death. Hardly a true contemporary.
quote:
Imagine questioning the historicity of Winston Churchill. Because you questioning Tacitcus is the same thing in relation to time. The point is that it shows your bias prominently when there is more than ample evidence that Jesus existed
In other words rather than addressimg my point - that Tacitus said nothing that would support your claim that Jesus was a truly controversial figure in his lifetime - you try to pretend that I am claiming that Jesus didn't exist ! That doesn't show bias on my part. The fact that rather than deal with my point as it stood you choose to repeatedly misrepresent me despite my corrections shows your bias.
quote:
Iraneus, Origen, Eusebius, Papian, Augustine and the whole Muratorian canon concluded that it was written by Mattityahu, more commonly known as 'Levi', who is even most commonly known in English, as Matthew. You don't seem to question Josephus' writings, or Tacitus for that matter, but for some reason, all suspicion is placed on all 66 books of the Bible. Why?
Josephus and Tacitus have a better provenance than the anonymous Gospel called Matthew. (Which is almost certainly not the document attributed to the disciple Matthew by Papias). And I certainly would question Jospehus in the ways that actually make sense. There are obviously self-serving passages in The Jewsih War, for instance.
quote:
Based on what? What are you measuring any of this by? Because it sure sounds like you're just flying by the seat of your pants and making this up as you go along. Just admit that you have a strong aversion to anything Christian and that you seek to discredit it so we can move on from there.
Based on the very real differences in the acccounts that I pointed out. And of course on discovering that experts date it to the 2nd Century. Just admit that you have a strong aversion to the truth whenever it gets in the way of your apologetics and then we can move on.
And I would add that opposing you is hardly opposing Chrisitianty.
quote:
Read it again. The verse says that an edict was posted throughout the city for forty days saying that he would be stoned for sorcery and apostasy. It says he was hanged as the cause of death, consistent with Jesus' execution.
i.e. it says that he had already been tried and sentenced to death. And since it does not say that the stoning was not carried out, why assume that it was not ? It is, after all, part of the sentence - according to the account it certainly should have happened.
quote:
Matthew records it that they weren't in Jerusalem but were on their way.
Try reading it in context. That occurs BEFORE Jesus' arrest and trial.
quote:
The only one who mentions the obvious, which is that his crucifixion was orchestrated by the chief priests comes from a Syrian historian.
Mara Bar-Serapion does not seem to have been a historian - he is an bosure figure but I can find no verification of such a claim. It is not even known when he wrote the letter - nto a history - in question. Indeed we do not know he is talking about Jesus - only a Christian would call Jesus a King and that for religious reasons. So his letter - if it refers to Jesus at all - is likely simply repeating Christian claims (the earliest date puts it at AD 73 and it may be as late as 200 AD).
quote:
How can you all of these figures spoken about from various sources, as well as having tangible evidence of their existence, all of whom corroborate Jesus' existence, but not believe in the actual protagonist?
But I DO beleive that there was a historical figure behind the Jesus story ! The question is why, when I point out defects in your evidence you keep turning around and falsely asserting that I do not. Why do you keep doing that ?
quote:
The Watchtower society is young. Jesus Christ and His message, clearly prophesied about long before his own time, is 2,000 years in the making.
No, Jesus was not clearly prophesised before his time. And you were specifically talking about Chjristinaity when it was even younger than the Jehovah's Witnesses are now, so my comparison stands.
quote:
Scientology is fifty years old. Give it time.
i.e. older than Christianity was when the resurrection supposeldy occurred. SO it has already survived long enough to serve as a valid example.
quote:
That's a fine consideration and applaud that kind of restraint. Why don't you apply that to the rest of history while you're at it. Because as far as I can tell, you only seem to question the Bible's historicity.
Of course I do. I applied it to the Babylonian Talmud - but you didn't like that either. What you mean is that you haven't observed me seriously discuss other sources so you have no valid basis for your assertion.
quote:
Because His tomb is unimportant. Paul does, however, speak numerously on what is important-- the Resurrection.
If there was an Empty Tomb, proving the truth of the resurrection it WOULD have been important. The fact that Paul does not mention it is therefore not insignificant.
quote:
That's fine, because every time somebody questions the historicity of the Bible it always gets thrown back in their face.
If it's fine then why do you complain about it ?
quote:
There is something wrong with your rationale if you only apply such rigorous scrutiny to things you don't like. That's the problem.
So the only problem is that you feel like making up baseless accusations. I'd say that was your problem, not mine.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 168 of 242 (388313)
03-05-2007 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by anastasia
03-05-2007 3:38 PM


Re: A critique of : "The Lost Tomb of Jesus"
You must remember that Jerusalem was destroyed in Roman times and there seems to have been no surviving record of the location of the tomb in the time of Constantine. And the tomb where the ossuaries were kept need not be the tomb in the biblical story - why should it be ?
There are seriosu problems with the argument but that is not one of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by anastasia, posted 03-05-2007 3:38 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by anastasia, posted 03-05-2007 6:58 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 179 of 242 (388440)
03-06-2007 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by anastasia
03-05-2007 6:58 PM


Re: A critique of : "The Lost Tomb of Jesus"
Traditions may or may not be reliable. We don't know what Constantine had to guide him, if anything. The Garden Tomb site has also not been discounted. It's not that it's been proven wrong, it's that it hasn't been shown to be correct.
There may be three tombs ! If Jesus died a second time, years later, he would not necessarily be buried in the same tomb again. And after the bones were collected for the ossuary they could be placed in yet another tomb. Even if there was no resurrection the ossuary need not be placed in the tomb the bones were collected from (IIRC it usually would not be).

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 183 of 242 (388454)
03-06-2007 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Nimrod
03-06-2007 2:52 AM


Re: I cant find any good discussion on this.
I'm still skeptical.
The makers have a record of misrepresentation and drawing spurious connections. Christopher Heard on his blog Higgaion did a long review of Exodus Decoded which should be read.
On Higgaion now is some relevant information on the statistics. (I have to say that using the tombs found is a valid measure - there's no reason to suppose that the names made the tomb more likely to be found ! - but a smaller sample means less confidence in the results). Heard has some relevant discussion on this program including a link to this open letter. I would suggest that the major flaw is that the calculation relies on some questionable assumptions and a fairer probability would be less impressive.
There are several articles on Higgaion about the identification with a number of links. Plenty to get into there.
I'm not convinced that the patina can be used to locate an individual tomb. It certainly indicates similar conditions over a significant period of time, but I do question whether it is individual enough to indicate a particular tomb. Why not another, similar tomb nearby ? The dubious provenance of the James ossuary is also a big question - how did it get separated from the others ? If it were taken from the tomb before the discovery, then why were the remaining ones left ? We don't have a good record of even when it was found.
{ADDED}
Joe Zias' comments are worth reading. Apparently the "missing" ossuary was plain and did not match the dimensions of the "James" ossuary. It seems unlikely that they came from the same tomb.
(I would also add that the current owner of the James ossuary claims to have had it before the Talipot tomb was opened - and says that he has a photograph proving it. He could be lying and his evidence forged, but that hardly helps the authentiicty of the James ossuary.)
{End Addition}
My impression so far is that this just another sensationalist "documentary" with little substance. It's not anti-Christian - it's the publicity, money and viewer figures that are the real targets.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Nimrod, posted 03-06-2007 2:52 AM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Nimrod, posted 03-06-2007 5:36 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 186 of 242 (388466)
03-06-2007 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Nimrod
03-06-2007 5:36 AM


Re: I cant find any good discussion on this.
According to the open letter the probability is that a random selection of names from the ossuaries found would have as good a match. That is an appropriate comparison, since the means of sampling does not bias the sample for this measurement. And the odds are 600:1 not 600,000:1.
However it makes two assumptions that are definitely questionable. Firstly that the name associated with "Mary Magdalene" is a good match, and secondly that the "Yose" is not the "Joseph" who is the father of Jesus. If we reject these two assumptions the match is less good, the more so since we would expect "Joseph" to be in the tomb. It also ignores names that don't match the information we have, which arguably ought to be considered to make the match less good, thus increasing the probability.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Nimrod, posted 03-06-2007 5:36 AM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Nimrod, posted 03-06-2007 7:13 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 188 of 242 (388479)
03-06-2007 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Nimrod
03-06-2007 7:13 AM


Re: I cant find any good discussion on this.
You got your 600,000:1 odds somewhere. And I certainly don't beleive that it represents any meaningful number. The only meaningful statistic is the 600:1 estimate and even that is very questionable (and apparently highly dependant on the "Mary Magdalene" identification).
quote:
Nothing would delight me more than there being all sorts of holes punched into this conclusion.But,it seems to me that the only really problematic issue right now (for the conslusion that this is Jesus's tomb) is the situation of people having trouble swallowing what seems like clear-albeit shocking-evidence.The DNA evidence of James also seems to have people in a state of shock and inability to believe their own eyes.
I haven't seen any evidence that is that strong. And there is no DNA evidence that is significant - and none associated with "James" at all. All we know is that the DNA somehow associated with two of the ossuaries (which could be modern contamination in both cases) indicates different maternal lineages. So even if the DNA is valid the alleged "Mary Magdalene" could be a half sister, a cousin or the wife of any of the males in the tomb.
So there is no "DNA evidence of James" and the DNA evidence we do have is of no real significance. And that is what you call "shocking" evidence ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Nimrod, posted 03-06-2007 7:13 AM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Nimrod, posted 03-06-2007 8:10 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 189 of 242 (388480)
03-06-2007 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Nimrod
03-06-2007 7:13 AM


Re: I cant find any good discussion on this.
Duplicate
Edited by PaulK, : Duplicate

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