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Author Topic:   Is evolution of mammals finished?
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1251 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 121 of 213 (388343)
03-05-2007 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by MartinV
03-05-2007 3:27 PM


Re: Mobbing
MartinV writes:

quote:

If you have a rebuttal in another thread, you should link to that specific post: you are presenting your case here, and it is not my job to go chasing through your other posts, especially when the topic is mammals and your reference is to butterflies.

We discussed the issue more in details there. So it is not necessary to discuss it here in another examples.

You were not asked to discuss it again. You claim to have established a fact elsewhere. None of your respondents are obliged to sift through an entire thread to find your supposedly irrefutable proof.

The only reason I can see to refuse to post a link is that the supposedly irrefutable proof does not exist. When a man claims to hold all aces but will not show his hand, he loses the game.

I see you failed to respond to the fact that present ecological interaction is not the sine qua non of evolutionary explanation (there, a little Latin to match your romantic German :))...

Yet other conception is self-representation (die Selbstdarstellung) of species. It is more credulous explanation, why we obviously do not observe any advantage/disatvantage of such color patterns.

As I stated earlier, many species depend on color and pattern for successful predation and its avoidance, as well as for an edge in sexual competition.

Are you claiming that genetic inheritance produces no difference in survival?

Do you claim that handsome men do not bed more women?

You see no disadvantage to albinism in a tropical species?

Do you believe an arctic animal that sheds its white winter coat too soon is unaffected by the loss of camouflage?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by MartinV, posted 03-05-2007 3:27 PM MartinV has responded

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derwood
Member (Idle past 160 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 122 of 213 (388722)
03-07-2007 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by MartinV
02-24-2007 2:36 PM


Re: Marine K-T extinctions and opportunity
quote:
The evolution of human was inevitable - all previous evolution served only as a mean to this outcome. Luck and chance has nothing to do with it. As John Davison observed in his Manifesto - the course of phylogeny might be as inevitable as course of ontogeny.

Evolution now is finished. It's over.


See now this is interesting - I respond directly to one of Davison's claims and it is implied that I am unfamiliar with his arguments, yet here you are quoting/paraphrasing Davison, so clearly you are familiar with Davison's rantings/writings. So, whose claims are you arguing for - Davison's or Broom's? Because they are NOT the same.

quote:
According Robert Broom no new mammalian Order appeared in the past 30 million years and no new Genus appeared in the past two million years.
What contradictionu do you see?

So, which is it? Did Broom claim both? Or did Broom claim no new Orders in 30 million years, and Davison claim no new Genera in 2 million years? I ask because when I referred specificially to Davison's claims, which was purportedly the topic of this thread (or at least the basis for it), I was accused of not knownig his claim.

As a systematist of sorts, I see a big problem with relying on arbitrary concepts like what a group of organisms is classified as as a means of arguing against evolution.


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derwood
Member (Idle past 160 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 123 of 213 (388723)
03-07-2007 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by MartinV
03-01-2007 6:40 PM


Re: Mobbing
quote:
Competitors for emptied niches should be bats and birds.

Interesting. I wasn't aware that there were a great deal of nocturnal insectivorous birds and a large number of diurnal seed eating bats such that they would be in competition.

Learn something every day...


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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 4156 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 124 of 213 (388836)
03-08-2007 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by RAZD
03-02-2007 7:14 PM


Re: Mobbing
Hummingbirds can be devastating, quick and sharp.

Oh yeah. Never, NEVER wear a bright red tee-shirt in a tropical forest. The disappointed (and very annoyed) hummingbirds who thought you were the world's largest flower can get very aggressive - and occasionally painful. :D


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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4112 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 125 of 213 (388970)
03-09-2007 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by derwood
03-07-2007 12:39 PM


Re: Marine K-T extinctions and opportunity

See now this is interesting - I respond directly to one of Davison's claims and it is implied that I am unfamiliar with his arguments, yet here you are quoting/paraphrasing Davison, so clearly you are familiar with Davison's rantings/writings. So, whose claims are you arguing for - Davison's or Broom's? Because they are NOT the same.

Of course they are same. Broom and Davison state that evolution is over.


So, which is it? Did Broom claim both? Or did Broom claim no new Orders in 30 million years, and Davison claim no new Genera in 2 million years? I ask because when I referred specificially to Davison's claims, which was purportedly the topic of this thread (or at least the basis for it), I was accused of not knownig his claim.

It seems that this question doesn't give you a rest. Of course this is a great puzzle - who said what an when. If we know it exactly we should solve the problem if evolution is over immediately.


As a systematist of sorts, I see a big problem with relying on arbitrary concepts like what a group of organisms is classified as as a means of arguing against evolution.

If you think that bats, whales, rodents, elephants are arbitrary classification you should - as systematist - propose another division that would better fit into darwinistic concept. Maybe to give whales, dogs and rabits into one Order Lagocarnceta - and we could see that new Order originates just at the beginning of 21 century.


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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4112 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 126 of 213 (388972)
03-09-2007 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Omnivorous
03-05-2007 5:51 PM


Re: Mobbing

Do you believe an arctic animal that sheds its white winter coat too soon is unaffected by the loss of camouflage?

That's another problem of darwinism - it see only extremities in this case. Of course coloration of some species may have cryptic function. The problem is that let say such species made only 0,5% of all species. Question remains if random mutation is reason of it.

99,5% of species have "normal" coloration which is neutral. Some of them have even conspicuous color that should be explaind away using great darwinistic fancy.

So why are swans white?


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 131 by Quetzal, posted 03-10-2007 7:47 AM MartinV has responded

Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 980 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 127 of 213 (388994)
03-09-2007 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by MartinV
03-09-2007 1:49 PM


Colouration of species
MartinV writes:

99,5% of species have "normal" coloration which is neutral. Some of them have even conspicuous color that should be explaind away using great darwinistic fancy.

Conspicuous colouration of species does not need to be "explained away", it's perfectly understandable in simple darwinistic terms. Flowers have conspicuous colours because insects pollinate them, and flowers that attract more insects by being more brightly coloured will prosper more than those less so. Some very brightly coloured insects are signalling their being poisonous to would-be predators. The better the warning, the better the chance of survival. Some birds are brightly coloured because it has become a factor in their mating process. The more beautifully coloured the bird, the better its chances of being chosen as a mate. The latter is a case of darwinism involving sexual selection.

No "great darwinistic fancy" needed, just the same old story, time and again, of random mutation and natural - or sexual - selection.


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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4112 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 128 of 213 (388998)
03-09-2007 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Parasomnium
03-09-2007 4:58 PM


Re: Colouration of species

The more beautifully coloured the bird, the better its chances of being chosen as a mate.

And the better chance that male progeny will attract attention of some predator. It's interesting that female choice goes so often against fitness of the species, isn't it? And yet natural selection didn't select females progeny with lesser demands to gay colour of males.

So darwinistic logic is this - color patterns has some aposematic/protective meannig, or it is selected by mating process.
Tertium non datur - as Omnivorous says.

So whats the case of swan?

Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.


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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2378 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 129 of 213 (389002)
03-09-2007 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by MartinV
03-09-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Colouration of species
And the better chance that male progeny will attract attention of some predator. It's interesting that female choice goes so often against fitness of the species, isn't it?

That's rather the point, the fact that the animals survive despite the handicap means that they are in fact fit so the size or distinctiveness of colouration act as an honest signal of fitness to the female of the species.

There is no need for there to be any one size fits all explanation for all variations of colouration.

TTFN,

WK

TTFN,

WK


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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 130 of 213 (389019)
03-10-2007 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by MartinV
03-09-2007 1:49 PM


Re: Mobbing
MartinV writes:

So why are swans white?

They don't have to be. Swans can be aggressive and are good fighters, and the northern hemisphere ones may have developed the white colouring in order to appear larger to potential preditors. An extrovert strategy, being loud and bold. However, swan colouring could have been largely neutral evolution, as the existence of both mixed coloured and all black swans in the southern hemisphere might indicate. See link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan


This message is a reply to:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 4156 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 131 of 213 (389023)
03-10-2007 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by MartinV
03-09-2007 1:49 PM


Re: Mobbing
So why are swans white?

Not all of them are. Cygnus melanocorypha (black-necked swan, S. America) and C. atratus (black swan, Australia) aren't white. You might as well ask why several species of white swans have black beaks (for instance, C. buccinator, C. columbianus), or blue beaks for that matter (C. cygnus). Sexual selection is the most likely reason, as you've been told.


This message is a reply to:
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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4112 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 132 of 213 (389078)
03-10-2007 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by bluegenes
03-10-2007 5:32 AM


Re: Mobbing

They don't have to be. Swans can be aggressive and are good fighters, and the northern hemisphere ones may have developed the white colouring in order to appear larger to potential preditors. An extrovert strategy, being loud and bold. However, swan colouring could have been largely neutral evolution, as the existence of both mixed coloured and all black swans in the southern hemisphere might indicate. See link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan

Thanks for the link. It means that color of swans have no survival advantage - they can be white or black as well. Color of their plumage was not selected by "Natural selection" so in this case "Natural selection" is meaningless. It support thesis that "Natural selection" in many cases is no relevant explanation of coloration of species. Consequently "Natural selection" as explanation of evolution is in many cases only darwinistic fancy.


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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4112 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 133 of 213 (389079)
03-10-2007 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Quetzal
03-10-2007 7:47 AM


Re: Mobbing

Sexual selection is the most likely reason, as you've been told.

So the motor of evolution is not "Random mutation and Natural selection" but "Sexual selection" instead? Does it mean that reason why ancient fish became feathered eagle is only due to "sexual selection"?

Or do darwinists use "sexual selection" in cases where they cannot explain morphology by Natural selection only? Is sexual selection something like darwinistic crutch?

Or better question - can "sexual selection" lead to speciation? Are there any examples where "sexual selection" created new species, genera, family, order?

Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20155
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 134 of 213 (389081)
03-10-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by MartinV
03-05-2007 3:27 PM


Re: Mobbing
We discussed the issue more in details there. So it is not necessary to discuss it here in another examples.

The fact is that your position was refuted on the other thread, so failing to link to it shows you don't want that known.

Not that you admit it to yourself.

Enjoy.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20155
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 135 of 213 (389082)
03-10-2007 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by MartinV
03-09-2007 1:42 PM


Re: Marine K-T extinctions and opportunity
Of course they are same. Broom and Davison state that evolution is over.

Thus when we see evolution happening, this refutes both of them.

Enjoy.


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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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