Church spreading aids

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Originally posted by John:

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Originally posted by gene90:
It can also be argued that a viral agent is the ultimate cause for the AIDS pandemic.

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You know what I meant.

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Yes, I do know what you mean. Just being a pain in the butt? hmmm.... not entirely. With STDs, HIV in particular, there is a real tendency to treat them as moral issues, as behavioral shortcomings. They aren't. STDs are diseases just like colds, malaria, dysentry, or gangrene. But with these diseases the disease take the heat, (even though there are behaviors which can help control those diseases) not the person who contracted it.

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I agree.The spectre of "you are going to be rightly punished for wnating and having sex!" rears it's ugly, Puritain head.

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Originally posted by gene90:

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The spectre of "you are going to be rightly punished for wnating and having sex!" rears it's ugly, Puritain(sic) head.

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Well now, you've got to use common sense here. It's one thing to restrict yourself to one partner. It's another to frequent prostitutes. Also they shouldn't refuse to use condoms. I think that the AIDS epidemic is at least partially (maybe mostly) the fault of economics (prostitution) and culture (lack of monogamy).

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This is very simple to understand but it isn't what people want to hear. In a typical instance, when the New York gay community was first asked to be less promiscuous, the speakers were villified as "'anti-gay f*g***s', homophobes, fearmongers, and fools" (Laurie Garrett, The Coming Plague, p 292)

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Although it is possible to be infected with HIV without engaging in improper behavior (ex: bad transfusions, needle pricks) the fact is that most cases are contracted through immoral acts and behavioral shortcomings. That is why there is an AIDS stigma.

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[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-01-2002]

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Yes, love and physical pleasure between consenting adults is a horrible, destructive, evil thing.Yep, that ugly Puritain moralizing runs deep!

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Originally posted by gene90:
Schraf, when you feel like making a substantive reply, by all means, do so.

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While I'm waiting, perhaps I should dress in solid black, wait till dark, and stand on the Interstate and see what happens.

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Most people get diseases because it is part of their environment. The problem with virtually all cases of this disease is that they get AIDS because they can't keep their pants on or get over their recreational chemicals. It's rather difficult to excuse that behavior. Almost as if they are deliberately out looking for it.

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[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-02-2002]

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"Just Say No", Gene? Give me a break. Life is more complicated for most of the rest of the world.A great many people, mostly in the Third World, contract HIV because they are ignorant of how to avoid it. Many more are infected by people who didn't know they had it, or by people who had it and they didn't tell their partner.Tell an African woman whose main value as a wife is to produce children to refuse sex with her husband and see how far it gets you. You go ahead and tell her to keep her pants on, Gene.You have of late let a very definite superior tone come through in your posts.I object to your constant moralizing. It is arrogant and irritating.For someone who claims to be a Christian I find you seem to be quite lacking in compassion. You come across as a hard, unbending person.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-10-2002]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[B]

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"Just Say No", Gene?

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That's right.

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Unrealistic and naieve.

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Tell an African woman whose main value as a wife is to produce children to refuse sex with her husband and see how far it gets you.

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I'm not suggesting they refuse sex with their husbands. I'm suggesting that their husbands should have sex only with their wives, and vice versa.

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But what if he didn't? Your answer is for her to refuse to have sex with him, isn't it?

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You have of late let a very definite superior tone come through in your posts.

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That's because, until as of late, you haven't been on the opposite end.

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So are you saying that your superior tone was reserved for me now that I disagree with you? That doesn't make sense.Or, are you saying that I never noticed it before now because we have often been on the smae side of an issue? That makes more sense, but I don't think this is the case.I really think that you are becoming more self-righteous and condescending and that your debate quality is slipping. Poor debate practices that you nail other people on, you are guilty of yourself.

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Since I actively began opposing you and others that I had not before, the tone of your posts have changed.

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So have yours, Gene.

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They are more condescending, more self-righteous, and arrogant. Apparently believing in God is a mark of intellectual inferiority, and I have been branded.

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No, refusing to argue and debate the logical and skillful way you used to and your willingness to use poor debate tactics are a mark of becoming...I don't know what.

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Plus I see that the "respect" I used to see for my posts amongst the old-timers was only skin deep.

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No, it is the fact that you are using sloppy debate tactics more and more, and illogical arguments, and are becoming pretty snotty in some of your posts that is the problem.I will own up to some pretty tenatious, blunt statements, and I have also been known to get pissed off every now and then.

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It never was about the quality of my arguments, only whether or not I agree with you.

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I strongly disagree.

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I see this when we talk about God, politics, and anything which we disagree on. And when we talk about evolution even the other evolutionists have ceased to expound upon my ideas.

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I haven't really noticed this, but you seem to spend almost all of your time in the Faith and Belief forum, so you might know better than me.I still think you are feeling kind of put upon, but I don't think anyone here has been unfair to you.

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Of course, this loss of respect works both ways.

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Please show me where I have treated you disrespectfully, Gene.

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I object to your constant moralizing. It is arrogant and irritating.

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You're entitled to your opinion.

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Yep. You are also entitled to whine about how nobody likes you any more, yet ignore the reason when it is shown to you.

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You come across as a hard, unbending person.

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Well that's unfortunate. The truth is hard sometimes.

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Gee, is it difficult to know what the truth is all the time? It must be a terrible responsibility and SUCH a burden!(see this is the arrogant thing I was talking about)

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I'm only the messenger of common sense: that if you control yourself, you're a lot better off.

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If you are EDUCATED, you are a lot better off.

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I don't see anything uncompassionate about that, and I don't think I'm callous for but none of the dissenting opinions on my posts surprise me anymore.

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You certainly come across as uncaring and seem to be saying that people with AIDS get what they deserve. That is heartless and distateful, to say the least.

I don't see anything wrong with polygamy.It is polyGYNY, which is what is actually practiced most of the time, and often involving (the coersion of) very young girls, that I object to.What consenting ADULTS do with their living situations and lifestyles is up to them.

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I pray for the world. *bracing for mockery* that's my contribution, I'm convinced it's much more effective than holding a gun to someones head.

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I thought you liked guns, Funky?

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So, what do you think of them? Callous, insensitive, inappropriate?

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Sure.They are all those things.But Moose probably isn't any more a real threat to the US government institutions than my cat is, and you know it, yet you have gone on and on and ON with this "treason" bullcrap.He was blowing off steam in a way that obviously deeply offended you, and you want to make him shut up. That's all this really boils down to.I think you are someone who likes to dish it out but can't take it.Or, more accurately, you are someone who wants to be able to say what you want to but doesn't want to grant anyone else the same privilage.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-04-2003]

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Crowds of Iraqis celebrate and pull down a statue of Saddam as Baghdad falls.

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Crowds?A small crowd, maybe, and some, if not most or all of those were most likely trucked in by US forces.That was a completely staged media event.You can check out the wide shot, in which you see a small group of Iraqis surrounded by a large group of media people and vehicles, and a LOT of empty space in the square.There is also a couple of photos to compare of a POW who was transported to the scene to be an "extra", apparently.http://globalresearch.ca/articles/NYI304A.htmlSo, it seems that you are saying that we are the world's policeman and have the moral justification to topple "evil" governments all on our own as we see fit.Hey, if we get a few billion barrels of high-quality oil for our cronies, um, I mean, US corporations in the bargain, it's just a coincidence.

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If you really think they are "callous" and "insensitive" why didn't YOU say anything about it?

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Because I thought I understood that he was blowing off steam, and because emotions were running high at the time and I felt like giving him some latitude.I am well aware that I have a pretty strong self-righteous, judgemental streak inside me, but it seems to be absolutely NOTHING compared to the one you have inside you.There are plenty of offensive things you have said on this forum, Gene, that you have not owned up to or taken responsibiliy for, so I wouldn't be so eager to point fingers if I were in your shoes.BTW, this will be my last post to you. I used to have a lot of fun in our debates, but these days I just feel seething vitriol coming from you rather than interested discussion. It's too bad.Have a nice life, and I hope you come to realize that the world is not a black and white place and that you, and the US, are not isolated from the rest of the world.