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Author Topic:   Why Would God Care?
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 217 (389490)
03-13-2007 9:03 PM


Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that there is, in fact, a God. And not just any old God, but an elderly man, with a long white beard, who sounds a bit like James Mason. His thought process is at least superficially comparable to a human's, and he watches over all of His Creation, taking an active (if at times mysterious) hand in its development.
The question I have, given this scenario, is why God would care that little Jimmy Highschoolboy touches himself at night.
It's a big universe, and Jimmy is one boy, on a tiny planet, on the far end of a single galaxy. Meanwhile, God still hasn't managed to get around to licking that whole entropy thing. In the course of running all of Creation, how can it be that God's priorities include getting all pissed off that Jimmy thought a little too long about his lab partner Suzie while he was in the shower?
Is it even possible that, for a being who can't help but see the Big Freakin' Picture, little Jimmy's self-abuse is even an issue?

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Coragyps, posted 03-14-2007 10:26 AM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 8 by anastasia, posted 03-14-2007 4:40 PM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 9 by Brian, posted 03-14-2007 4:44 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 10 by Jazzns, posted 03-14-2007 4:51 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 11 by Heathen, posted 03-14-2007 4:51 PM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 03-14-2007 6:28 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-21-2007 2:54 PM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 147 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-17-2007 11:44 AM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 207 by imageinvisible, posted 01-07-2008 7:30 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 217 (389561)
03-14-2007 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPD
03-13-2007 9:06 PM


Well, despite the thread having been placed in the wrong forum with a thinly-veiled warning to not respond, I anticipate lively discussion. Thanks bunches.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPD, posted 03-13-2007 9:06 PM AdminPD has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 217 (389566)
03-14-2007 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Coragyps
03-14-2007 10:26 AM


This is essentially what I'm talking about. I've never had a theist adequately explain why God, who by definition has got the biggest conceivable issues to concern itself with, would take an interest in the paltry matters of mankind. (Assuming it even noticed us.)
Any believers want to weigh in?

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Coragyps, posted 03-14-2007 10:26 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 03-14-2007 11:24 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 217 (389630)
03-14-2007 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by anastasia
03-14-2007 4:40 PM


Are you stealing Eddie Izzard's God for yourself?
Glad someone got that.
If God exists, and if He automatically knows how humans should live together...
Well, your assumptions shoot right past the question I was asking. Why would how humans live even be within its notice? Are we that blindingly important, when stacked up against the entire universe?

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by anastasia, posted 03-14-2007 4:40 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by anastasia, posted 03-14-2007 7:18 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 03-15-2007 6:58 AM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 03-16-2007 6:12 PM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 03-21-2007 7:07 AM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 217 (389632)
03-14-2007 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Heathen
03-14-2007 4:51 PM


Being all powerful and omnipotent It's not as if watching little jimmy is going to cause him to lose concentration on some supernova he is arranging on the other side of the galaxy.
You are applying Human limitations and weaknesses to a divine eternal being.
Fair enough. (And this reply is aimed at Jazzns too, you guys kinda said the same thing.) But even given that, there's still the notion that God would have to be the only being in the universe who (being able to see Jimmy and a supernova and who knows what all else at the same time and understand it all) could really understand the big, big picture.
Are we meant to believe that, in the great scheme of all things, little Jimmy's nighttime fondlins really stand out as Something That Matters?
For that matter, that Jimmy himself is Something That Matters, when you look at everything from that perspective?

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Heathen, posted 03-14-2007 4:51 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Heathen, posted 03-14-2007 5:25 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 16 by Jazzns, posted 03-14-2007 5:31 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 217 (389736)
03-15-2007 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jazzns
03-14-2007 5:31 PM


I guess the next thought I would have is just that there simply may be no reason, even Biblically, for such a taboo.
Oh, the specific taboo isn't even really important. We could go for something equally meaningless, like making a graven image, or having sex out wedlock.
For that matter, it could be taken up to the point of wondering why god would care if we were killing one another left and right, but I can't even get past the little stuff.
I think Creavolution's idea in post fifteen is probably the closest; yes, you have to believe that we really are that important, when stacked up against everything else in the entire universe.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jazzns, posted 03-14-2007 5:31 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 217 (389738)
03-15-2007 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
03-15-2007 6:58 AM


Re: Put in Perspective.....
No, Dan....we are no more important in the grand scheme of things than refrigerator mold! Go ahead and make all the kids you want. You can be proud of your special little rugrats in the context of your own feelings...as if refrigerator mold ever had any feelings!
If I raise children who know that they are extremely important to me in the context of my own feelings, and know they have the potential to be important to mankind from its perspective, I will consider that a job well done.
However, Larni nails it. Of course we're important to us. We are us. The actions of our daily lives have a great deal of impact on... wait for it... our daily lives.
Similarly, I'm willing to wager that the production of a somewhat musty smell is rather important to the daily life of a refrigerator mold. But frankly, from our perspective, mold is a slight inconvenience that we spritz with a bottle and forget about soon after.
Why would God see us differently, if he saw us at all?
We are nothing to God. Thats a cool philosophy! In fact, lets take God out of the theory! We are nothing and yet deep down, we think that we are evolving into some rather special mold, if we say so ourselves!
Okay. You don't like it. Why doesn't it make sense?
I don't personally think there's anything especially depressing about realizing that we are, essentially, a virus with shoes. But whether I care or not wouldn't really change anything.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 03-15-2007 6:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 03-15-2007 11:46 AM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 217 (389751)
03-15-2007 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
03-15-2007 11:46 AM


Re: Put in Perspective.....
It makes perfect sense to someone who honestly doesn't believe that God ever could exist or..if God did exist that He would be concerned with us individually.
Sure does. And now I'm asking why it doesn't make sense to someone who does believe that God exists and gives a rat's ass.
In other words, "why do you believe what you believe?"
If we are indeed a virus with shoes, it would justify the fact that we raped this planet of natural resources and are now searching the heavens for another place to trash.
How do you figure? Raping the planet of natural resources is stupid from our perspective. It hurts us. God isn't required to think that's a bad idea.
If you were God, what would you do? Let the mold do its thing? Eliminate the mold?
Given the number of times I have eliminated mold, the answer seems fairly obvious.
OR....perhaps you may foreknow that these humans may someday catch the vision that endless pursuits of pleasure for pleasures sake is not the best way to fulfill their collective destiny.
This presumes a collective destiny of great importance, and is therefore tantamount to saying, "Yes, we are that important on a cosmic scale!"
It also, of course, begs the question, "what destiny might that be?"
Edited by Dan Carroll, : clarity

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 03-15-2007 11:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 03-16-2007 3:25 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 217 (389752)
03-15-2007 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
03-15-2007 11:32 AM


Re: Watch that first commandment
The second commandment, Love thy neighbor as thyself, also goes out the window when Jimmy, now grown and making a hundred thou a year, pretends to care about the rest of humanity by recycling his bottles and cans, voting Democratic, and joining together with the other educated elite of the world and affirming that we make our own purpose in life!
Yeah, grownup Jimmy sure is a dick with all that... recycling?

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 03-15-2007 11:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 03-15-2007 12:27 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 217 (389758)
03-15-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
03-15-2007 12:27 PM


Re: Watch that first commandment
Lets look at the big picture, Dan.
That's pretty much precisely what I'm saying.
Basically, humanity can either worship itself or worship something outside itself.
Or we can not bother with worship at all, but that's neither here nor there.
...Humans are selfish by nature!
Since you've already stated your belief that anything people do that isn't selfish is just people "pretending to care," this whole tangent is already waving huge red flags that say "WASTE OF TIME" in enormous gold letters.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 03-15-2007 12:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 03-15-2007 12:53 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 217 (389767)
03-15-2007 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
03-15-2007 12:53 PM


Re: Watch that first commandment
I thought the whole question was whether God would care if Jimmy was wasting his time.
Whether God would care about anything Jimmy did, yes. Especially essentially trivial activities. If you'd care to return to that idea, post 27 awaits your attention.
The waste of time to which I was referring was whether or not humans are inherently selfish. It is a tangent because the issue isn't whether humans would measure up to God's standards. It's whether God would bother having standards for us to measure up to.
It's a waste of time because you've defined "not selfish" to mean "actually selfish but pretending to be not selfish." So any discussion will just be going 'round in circles.
And I am talking about the highest ideal that we seek to strive towards.
There's that magnificent collective destiny again, huh? Post 27, Phat.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 03-15-2007 12:53 PM Phat has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 217 (389906)
03-16-2007 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
03-16-2007 3:25 PM


Re: Put in Perspective.....
Quite honestly, much of what I tentatively believe was taught to me.
Fair enough.
Come to think of it, that makes sense when you consider that God can create endless resources and according to the Bible He is all too happy to Bless His children with them. The issue is when there are limited resources and some humans think they have dibs on most of them.
Meanwhile, there are any number of believers who think that because God can create endless resources and is all to happy to Bless His children with them, we can just go ahead and take whatever we want, and atheists who think, "People, this is all we got! Let's conserve!"
We can go back and forth, vice versa on that one all day.
My answer would be that humans are important to me....seeing as how I foreknew that a incarnation of my Spirit would one day communicate with humanity.
The magnificent destiny is just to talk with God?
If he's keeping close tabs on Earth, he'll no doubt notice that we've reached the point in our development where we have cell phones.
I honestly can admit, however, that it is bruising to my individual Ego to think that I was created (or even evolved) for no special purpose other than to have fun, eventually mate with a woman, and have kids whom were my spittin image and who I taught to do the same thing I did.
Why? I know for a fact that fun and mating are great. And I'm so far childless, but having little versions of me running around who think I rule sounds pretty cool.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 03-16-2007 3:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 03-16-2007 3:48 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 217 (389910)
03-16-2007 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
03-16-2007 3:48 PM


Re: Put in Perspective.....
He wants us to be little versions of Him running around...
Again, why? I don't feel a pressing need to squint angrily at an anthill, wag my finger, and tell the ants they should go make sarcastic comments on message boards. Why would I? Even if the ants somehow managed to get it, what good would it do me?
Think about it. If you as a human Dad somehow had the ability to make your kids obey you and do whatever you wanted them to do and be whatever you wanted them to be, would you force your will on them?
'Course not. But if we continue the father metaphor, and even go ahead and work under the assumption that God does have some reason why he thinks of us as children, and not ants, wouldn't he be proudest of us when we moved out of the house, so to speak? When we realized we could get by fine without him? (Whether or not we're living in a way he might consider wise?)

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 03-16-2007 3:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 03-16-2007 7:10 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 217 (389929)
03-16-2007 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
03-16-2007 7:10 PM


Re: Put in Perspective.....
How could I have forgotten to tell him that he needs to be plugged into the right source! He never did understand what was wrong with the whole independent spirit thing!
Still not following what is wrong with that. Especially in the context of a paternal figure.
I AM GOD! I have no need of a computer or a cellphone!
It would make a lot more sense if he did use one. His current means of contact don't seem to work on a lot of people.
(Why he wants to make contact is still anybody's guess, of course... we still don't seem to have gotten around to that whole "why would God care" question.)

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 03-16-2007 7:10 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Coragyps, posted 03-17-2007 9:16 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 52 by purpledawn, posted 03-21-2007 8:28 AM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 217 (389932)
03-16-2007 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
03-16-2007 6:12 PM


HUMANS are the only one, or thing in the universe that can make a choice.
If you could explain that to my dog, I'd really appreciate it. I'd much rather tell him where he has to crap, instead of watching him personally inspect every last inch of Pine Grove before he decides where to do his business.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 03-16-2007 6:12 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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