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Author Topic:   Denouncing religions ? [New to debate]
MadaManga
Junior Member (Idle past 6209 days)
Posts: 31
From: UK
Joined: 03-06-2007


Message 16 of 89 (389555)
03-14-2007 9:37 AM


AZPaul3 writes:
My gut feeling is that we may find a lot of those hate crimes are directed against Jews and gays, and not necessarily for "creationist" or "evolutionist" reasons.
Yep, look at what stats there are & crimes against Jew far out did other religious based hate crimes.
(Crimes against gays are counted as sexuality based and were not included in the religious based stats - same goes for racist & sexist crimes).
However, these are the stats the American goverment made a law to obtain, and they are terrible. How does the American goverment approach social issues presented by crime if these are the shoddy stats they have to draw conclusions from? How do the agents that report to the FBI get away with lieing so badly? I mean, they are breaking the law to a law enforcement agency! Does no one pick up on this?

ICANT writes:
Just because I believe it does not make it true.
Thankyou! One of the main social issue of the Creationism V Evolution debate is that people want Creationism taught in school next to, or instead, of Evolution. However, Creationism is based on beliefs, and as you stated, that doesn't automatically make it true.
Evolution is taught because there is evidence to prove aspects of it, but not enough to prove the whole (hence, why it is a scientific theory - accepted by the majority of science community until proven wrong).
Some people are arguing that Creationism is a theory just as valid as Evolutions & should be taught in science. However, as there is no evidence to support their Creationist theory, this arguement is often discounted. (Some people also argue that Evolution is a "religious" theory as much as Creationism, so Creationism should be taught to stop religious bias. They claim science to be a religion).
Some religious scientists are trying to find scientific "evidence" to prove that Creationism is a theory just as valid as Evolution. However, their "evidence" always seems to be validating their religion's theory of creation alone.
Now, I was taught Creationism theories - but not in my science class. In science Evolution was taught. At the end of this topic a "debate on Intelligent Design" was encouraged, but the teacher wasn't allowed to promote either side. I.D. wasn't taught as a theory, it was however presented as an opinion.
Creationism was taught in my Religious Education class. It was kept completely seperate from science lessons & the theories of several religions were addressed. (One of the teachers was even the school's chaplin & he happily taught the theories of other religions without reference to his own).
Which makes me ask - is Religious Studies part of the curriculum in America? (By Religious Studies I mean the unbiasd study of the beliefs and theories of several religions. At higher levels the class was optional & became Philosophy).

ICANT writes:
Now since I am so far off base from what I can find that others believe I don't know what this would make me.
I currently think that everyone has, in essence, their own religion - that no two people have the same beliefs, even when they consider themselves to be of the same sect of the same religion. Also, their religion changes over time, just as they change.
This is because belief is as personal as it gets. Your heart and your mind join to make your belief - your perception of the world. No other person has your heart & mind.
It's why I feel that children shouldn't be taught religion until they are old enough to understand their heart & minds and stand firm in their convictions. Otherwise you are distorting the most personal part of them. I feel that parents that "commit" their child to a religion when they are born are being unfair to their child. Your child is not a tiny version of you and there is no reason why they should have the same beliefs.
Conversely, I also feel that some people lie to themselves about their religion - they were raised this way so they "believe" this - but the way they act proves that they do not really believe, they're just used to the motions taught to them as children.
While some people do comfortably fit the religion of their parents, I always feel sorry for those who can not express their beliefs, for fear of ostrasizing and/or persecution from friends, family or society.
That is why I dislike Fundamentalist societies and the mandorty teaching of Creationism as "the truth" to children is Fundamentalism in action. There's nothing more distressing than someone feeling they are forbidden to follow their heart and mind. There's nothing more repulsive than trying to force others to have your heart & mind. Let children have all the facts available and don't punish them for drawing their own conclusions.
So my opinion is that Creationism should be taught - but not in science. Futhermore, the creation theories of at least the most popular world religions should be taught. To keep perpective the other central beliefs of these religions should also be taught. Therefore, I believe Religious Studies is a necessary part of any curriculum for enabling children to have an understanding of the world and freedom of thought.
Of course, this is just my view, and where I live (England, UK), this is the goverment's stance. Lucky me.
However, I now feel put out that the boarding schools I went to were heavily Christian (we had Songs of Praise in the evening, Sunday School & Church most mornings. Everyone had to attend).
When I was old enough to think for myself I "left" the religion I was raised to. From 13 onwards I resented the mandatory religious sessions. Now I have the mental "stigma" of someone who "lost faith", and I hate when people tell me that's what I did. I can only argue it wasn't fair to teach me a faith when I wasn't mature enough to understand it or myself. I bet there are lots of Evolutionists who find similar issues with the way they were raised.
Edited by MadaManga, : Spelling errors. Why is I can preview something loads of times & only once I post do I relise I've spelt debate as deabte?
Edited by MadaManga, : No reason given.

Nothing is perfect.
Before the universe was nothing and when the universe is perfect it will be nothing.
Is it fair to say that Universe resulted from "Nothing" being rendered imperfect to form "Existance"

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 17 of 89 (389565)
03-14-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by ICANT
03-13-2007 7:10 PM


quote:
I am a farm boy so I understand evolution, I think. You can improve livestock by selective breeding. You can improve seeds by selective pollination. I have evolved from a strong agile youth to a dotting old fool.
No, that's not evolution. That's just aging.
Individuals do not evolve; populations do.
quote:
But I have never seen nor has anyone ever been able to show me one piece of evidence of macro evolution (one species becoming another species).
There is lots of evidence (though off-topic for this thread) of speciation. There is so much of it that even the major Creation "science" organizations no longer deny that speciation occurs.
If you would like to propose a thread to discuss the evidence for speciation, I would be delighted to participate.
quote:
I believe that true science is true. I believe that theories are just that, whether it is one man's opinion or millions.
FYI, the way scientists use the word "theory" is different from the layman's use of the word.
Scientific "theories" are not just somebody's "opinion". They are, in fact, very well-supported explanations of facts.
For example, we have the Atomic Theory of Matter, Gravitational Theory, the Germ Theory of Disease, and the Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System.
Do you consider any of these ideas mere "opinions"?
But again, all of this is off topic for this thread. If you would like to propose a thread to discuss how science works (which I think you would benefit from), please do so and I'd be there to participate.

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 18 of 89 (389687)
03-14-2007 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by MadaManga
03-14-2007 9:37 AM


Re-Religious Studies
Which makes me ask - is Religious Studies part of the curriculum in America?
Only in private Church run schools.
You cannot even say God bless you if someone sneezes without offending someone.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 19 of 89 (389691)
03-14-2007 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ICANT
03-14-2007 9:22 PM


Re: Re-Religious Studies
quote:
You cannot even say God bless you if someone sneezes without offending someone.
Exaggerate much?

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 20 of 89 (389703)
03-15-2007 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by MadaManga
03-08-2007 9:29 AM


Creationism
Evolutionists theories go against all religions equally, so how do Creationists get away with their bias against other religions?
They think they are the only ones right.

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 21 of 89 (389705)
03-15-2007 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by nator
03-14-2007 9:41 PM


Re: Re-Religious Studies
Exaggerate much?
Not Found
A pro-family law firm the American Center for Law and Justice is defending a high school student in Illinois who was suspended for at least a month for saying “God bless”
opps wasn't for sneezing though my fault.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 22 of 89 (389709)
03-15-2007 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICANT
03-15-2007 12:30 AM


God Bless
It appears he wasn't suspended for saying "god bless"; he was suspended for doing something he had been warned not too.
Page not found - Student Press Law Center
I think they went way, way over with a month suspension. I think, however, that he should not be allowed to be a part of the broadcast again.

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MadaManga
Junior Member (Idle past 6209 days)
Posts: 31
From: UK
Joined: 03-06-2007


Message 23 of 89 (389714)
03-15-2007 5:44 AM


Something truely unbelievable - no RE
ICANT writes:
Which makes me ask - is Religious Studies part of the curriculum in America?
Only in private Church run schools.
And I'm guessing that in the Church run schools they only teach the religion of the church.
Basically, the American goverment makes no attempt for its citizen to understand other religions. The average high school leaver only understands the religion(s) they encounter in their daily lives outside of school. They have little to no concept of the beliefs of other religions in the world.
Wow. That I find shockingly irresponcible. I can hardly believe that a developed country, active on the world stage, has a goverment like that!
Maybe the best way to solve the American's issue of Creationism V Evolution in education is to have a campaign for Religious Studies/Education to be introduced into the curriculum. If students are taught the various beliefs of the main the religions of the world, then Creationism in its various forms will be included, in a non-science setting. People would then be less likely to feel slighted that their beliefs are being ignored in education.
(If you keep the class optional i.e. to the discretion of the parents, then children of those parents who can't bare to have their children hear of other religions don't have to attend. Said parents then can't complain that Evolution, but not Creationism, was taught to their children. They're the ones who pulled their children out of the class Creationism was taught in! )
How can being able to better understand people be unconstitutional. Religions exists. Ignoring them isn't going to make them go away - it's just going to increase public fear of them.
Would any American Creationists and/or Evolutionists consider this a useful solution?
Can anyone suggest a better solution?
Edited by MadaManga, : No reason given.
Edited by MadaManga, : Added the second question at the end.

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 24 of 89 (389719)
03-15-2007 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICANT
03-15-2007 12:30 AM


Re: Re-Religious Studies
This seems a bit confused, it isn't as if the guy was suspended from the school, he was just taken off the show.
From Error: 404
The ACLJ writes:
The American Center for Law and Justice, an international public interest law firm, announced today that it has assisted a high school senior from Illinois - who was suspended from a student television broadcast for saying the words “God Bless” - in overturning the suspension and returning to the broadcast. After hearing from the student and ACLJ attorneys, the Dupo, Illinois School Board last night voted unanimously to revoke the suspension and permit James Lord to return to the broadcast immediately.
Your recap of this, and indeed the Christian Post article you got it from, is both inadequate and misleading.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 25 of 89 (389721)
03-15-2007 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by MadaManga
03-14-2007 9:37 AM


Which makes me ask - is Religious Studies part of the curriculum in America?
There is no national curriculum in the states in the way we in the UK would think of it. Each State and within them County or district has a high degree of autonomy in what they teach in their schools.
As I understand it there is no constitutional barrier to having a class like RE, but the various bodies involved avoid doing so because of the potentially controversial fallout. There are some schools which teach biblical studies but they seem to be a clear example of how such a class easily can infringe on the separation of church and state.
From Americans get an 'F' in religion - USATODAY.com ...
Mark Chancey, professor of religious studies at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, looked last year at how Texas public school districts taught Bible classes. His two studies, sponsored by the Texas Freedom Network, a civil liberties group, found only 25 of more than 1,000 districts offered such a class.
"And 22 of them, including several using the Greensboro group's curriculum, were clearly over the line," teaching Christianity as the norm, and the Bible as inspired by God, says Chancey. One teacher even showed students a proselytizing Power Point titled, "God's road map for your life" that was clearly unconstitutional, he says.
So well taught religious studies seems to be at best a very rare thing in the states, but then again RE is arguably not well taught in the UK either even when the classes are compulsory. I certainly think that in some cases RE as taught in the UK might well infringe on church and state separation if it was tried in the states, after all the UK actually has a state religion.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 89 (389724)
03-15-2007 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by ICANT
03-13-2007 7:10 PM


I am a farm boy so I understand evolution, I think. You can improve livestock by selective breeding. You can improve seeds by selective pollination. I have evolved from a strong agile youth to a dotting old fool.
That' not evolution.
But I have never seen nor has anyone ever been able to show me one piece of evidence of macro evolution (one species becoming another species).
I am a farm boy so I understand evolution, I think. You can improve livestock by selective breeding. You can improve seeds by selective pollination. I have evolved from a strong agile youth to a dotting old fool. But I have never seen nor has anyone ever been able to show me one piece of evidence of macro evolution (one species becoming another species).
If you have never seen any evidence for this, it's 'cos you've never looked, and if no-one's ever showed you the evidence, I can presume that this is because you've never asked.
It's easy to make an argument from ignorance if you carefully avoid learning anything about the subject you're discussing.
Here are some observations of new species, together with some quotes from creationists admitting it.
I have asked the question many time where the singularitry came from that the universe supposedly started from? The best answer I have got so far is, I don't know.
Yes, Virginia, there are still unanswered scientific questions. What's your point?
I don't know how but I have read where science says it happened that life forms disappeared.
Science says that? Someone should tell a scientist.
I believe that true science is true. I believe that theories are just that, whether it is one man's opinion or millions.
Really? Now me, I believe that a theory is:
In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses. --- US National Academy of Sciences
"Theory" means a logical, tested, well-supported explanation for a great variety of facts. --- National Center for Science Education, USA
Scientific theories, like evolution and relativity and plate tectonics, are hypotheses that have survived extensive testing and repeated verification. Scientific theories are therefore the best-substantiated statements that scientists can make to explain the organization and operation of the natural world. Thus, a scientific theory is not equal to a belief, a hunch, or an untested hypothesis. Our understanding of Earth's development over its 4.5 billion-year history and of life's gradual evolution has achieved the status of scientific theory. --- American Geophysical Union
A theory in science, such as the atomic theory in chemistry and the Newtonian and relativity theories in physics, is not a speculative hypothesis, but a coherent body of explanatory statements supported by evidence. The theory of evolution has this status. --- American Intitute of Biological Science
But then, I've bothered to learn the basic vocabulary of the subject I'm discussing.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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MadaManga
Junior Member (Idle past 6209 days)
Posts: 31
From: UK
Joined: 03-06-2007


Message 27 of 89 (389731)
03-15-2007 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Wounded King
03-15-2007 6:39 AM


Do you mean that if a state chose to drop a subject - say Geography (and they could give a valid reason about how this would benefit students) then that state could just drop Geography & the goverment could do nothing about it?
The American goverment has no influence on what subjects are taught in American schools?
And I totally agree with Stephen Prothero, teaching people about religions is citizen empowerment. (Power to the people! )
When it comes to dealing with people of different cultures - or even your own! - ignorance so doesn't mean bliss. Only understanding can gulf gaps between people.
Plus, I realise the UK has a state religion - the Queen's the head of it! But that doesn't mean that this religion controls education, that decided by the Goverment. America has no state religion & you get the impression that in some cases religion is controlling education.
Edited by MadaManga, : No reason given.
Edited by MadaManga, : No reason given.
Edited by MadaManga, : Spellings
Edited by MadaManga, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 28 of 89 (389735)
03-15-2007 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by MadaManga
03-15-2007 7:49 AM


Do you mean that if a state chose to drop a subject - say Geography (and they could give a valid reason about how this would benefit students) then that state could just drop Geography & the goverment could do nothing about it?
I'm not a hundred percent sure but essentially I think this is correct. Certainly a state board could decide to put together a set of standards for examination which would not require a knowledge of geography, although one would hope they would have trouble getting such standards passed.
For one EvC relevant example look at what the Kansas board of education did with their science standards -
Welcome kcfs.org - BlueHost.com
http://www.wheaton.edu/ACG/essays/miller1.html
TTFN,
WK
Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.

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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 89 (389741)
03-15-2007 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by MadaManga
03-15-2007 7:49 AM


The American goverment has no influence on what subjects are taught in American schools?
That is almost correct. The Federal government has some ability to regulate what is taught but there is no Federal Curriculum. In the US the content of what is taught lies in the State testing agencies, the various accreditation agencies and the local school board.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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MadaManga
Junior Member (Idle past 6209 days)
Posts: 31
From: UK
Joined: 03-06-2007


Message 30 of 89 (389744)
03-15-2007 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
03-15-2007 11:15 AM


Can people petition the State testing agencies, the various accreditation agencies and the local school board to add new subjects.
And if they can, do they? How much support would a subject have to have before it was taught.
On another note; some of the things raised on those links!
quote:
“The sequence of the nucleotide bases within genes is not dictated by any known chemical or physical law” (p. 73, KSES, 2005)
And before Issac Newton there were no "known" physical laws for gravity. Newton's laws doesn't 'dictate' gravity, they show how it works at the macro level. I bet gravity worked just fine before Newton came along. So what exactly is their point?
Edited by MadaManga, : No reason given.

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