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Author Topic:   too intelligent to actually be intelligent?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 106 of 304 (390424)
03-20-2007 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Dr Adequate
03-20-2007 4:18 AM


Re: Evolution -- God's Design
Dr Adequate writes:
Good. It is indeed irrational to believe that the natural world "all happened by chance".
This is why no-one believes this.
OK. How should I phrase it. If there is no IDer then what was the first cause that got things going?
GDR writes:
What scientific evidence is there that proves that there is no IDer who either set in motion or is directing the evolutionary process?
Dr AdequateExactly the same amount of evidence that proves that there is no weather god who set in motion or is directing the lightning.
Once again you are taking things out of context. I was asked what evidence is there for an IDer. I was just trying to make the point that there is the same amount of scientific evidence for there being no IDer, because neither is sceintific. Science is about the natural world. If a supernatural world exists it isn't scientific.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-20-2007 4:18 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 107 of 304 (390425)
03-20-2007 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by gimelnus
03-19-2007 9:45 PM


Re: Michael Shermer
Welcome to EvC. We're glad that you joined us, but doing long cut & pastes from your blog is not really debating. If you want to make a comment and then provide a link over to your blog, even quote a piece of it, that's fine, but we don't really debate websites here, rather other individuals.
In addition, except for the words Intelligent and Design being included in your rhapsody, nothing in your tome is really related to the topic in this thread.
The topic in this thread revolves around living things. If you look at living things, those things we can actually observe, do they appear to be a product of Intelligent Design?
Any scientific model must explain the evidence available. If someone wants to support Intelligent Design, then their model must explain certain things like:
Why most of the products of the designer are rejected as defective?
Reproduction is extremely inefficient. Most reproduction attempts fail. The mother turtle lays hundreds of eggs, yet only a small fraction of those eggs which do hatch survive long enough to reproduce. Many Fish and Coral spawn by releasing clouds of eggs and sperm that simply float to the surface with the random chance that somehow an egg and sperm might drift together and merge. Plants broadcast seeds in the wind with no control over the conditions of the soil where they might land.
In each of those examples, for the most part, reproduction is NOT directed and in most cases, reproduction fails.
Even in the case of what some folk call the most advanced critter ever, humans, the norm is for reproduction to fail. It has only been very recently, in my lifetime as a matter of fact, that in a few developed countries things have changed to a situation where the norm is for a pregnancy to carry to full term, for the baby to be born without killing the mother in the process and for the baby to then live long enough to reproduce. In addition, those things only happened because the one example of an Intelligent Designer we know of, other humans, totally changed the "Natural and Normal" environment by inserting Intelligently Designed medical equipment, living conditions, instruments, pharmaceuticals and procedures.
Why are examples of good designs not incorporated into other similar products?
I discussed this in more detail in Message 8, but basically, why doesn't the designer use good ideas. If there is some Intelligent Designer, why doesn't he scarf the code for a great module and reuse that code wherever applicable?
As a systems designer, a programmer, a website designer and as an ex-engineer, I know for a fact that I freely incorporate those features which I see, even if created by some other intelligent designer in what I produce. I try very hard not to continue producing sub-optimal products when I know there is a better solution available.
That is NOT what we see when we look at living things. Human eyes are still built backwards even though we know there are better designs available. The human brain and intellect is not duplicated in other mammals. Shins still have no padding even though we are aware of the problem and as intelligent designers we can manufacture shin guards, elbow pads and shoulder pads. We still have a sharp cutting edge inside our skulls that is great for slicing up our brains on impact even though as intelligent designers we know to round sharp edges and add padding and restraints to protect things like brains.
When we look at living things, what we see is not Intelligent Design, rather it is absolutely minimal design. The whole sum of design in living things is to mass produce vast quantities of a product so that even given the inefficiency of the design, a sufficient number of the products will pass the minimal QC barrier of natural selection long enough to reproduce more sub-par products.
Edited by AdminQuetzal, : Off topic notification
Edited by AdminQuetzal, : Re-opening post for response

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by gimelnus, posted 03-19-2007 9:45 PM gimelnus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by gimelnus, posted 03-20-2007 1:54 PM jar has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 108 of 304 (390426)
03-20-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by sidelined
03-20-2007 7:31 AM


Re: Evolution -- God's Design
sidelined writes:
If the Ider exists what accounts for the level of complexity that the Ider exhibits by way of the design this Ider is capable of generating?
Since complexity is the reason you give for the belief in an Ider, how then do we explain the complexity of the Ider? Is there another Ider to account for this one and so on ad infinitum?
Time is a fascinating thing. It is a feature of our universe that allows us to understand change. We have no way of understanding other dimensions yet various scientific theories postulate various other dimensions including other time dimensions. A molecule of light doesn't experience the passage of time.
I agree that you pose an interesting question but there will never be an answer to it in this life time. If I am correct in my beliefs we should find out the answers in the next life. I know I'll be going to all the lectures.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by sidelined, posted 03-20-2007 7:31 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by sidelined, posted 03-20-2007 5:55 PM GDR has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 109 of 304 (390428)
03-20-2007 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by GDR
03-20-2007 10:37 AM


Re: Evolution -- God's Design
quote:
I just suggested that with the millions of years of evolution that we have had that the best design would now be in place.
That is not what Evolutionary theory claims.
Evolution only posits "good enough" design for a given environment.
Of course, we humans have rapidly learned to alter and control their environment rather than allowing most evolutionary forces to affect us. However, evolution still happens, largely through sexual selection.
You may not have a "problem with Darwin" but you sure don't understand the basics of Evolutionary Theory.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by GDR, posted 03-20-2007 10:37 AM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 110 of 304 (390429)
03-20-2007 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by nator
03-20-2007 8:29 AM


Re: Evolution -- God's Design
nator writes:
Occams razor is violated when you tack an IDer on to evolutionary theory, because evolutionary theory doesn't require an IDer.
I agree that it doesn't require an IDer, but it does require a first cause. Evolution is what happened after the whole process was set in motion, whether it was by natural or supernatural means. It is the same one way or the other.
By the way, I don't think that science should ever get to the point that it should stop and say this is as far as we can go because this is the end of the natural and everything prior is supernatural.
I'm out of time right now, so I don't have time to answer your other post

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 03-20-2007 8:29 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 03-20-2007 11:04 AM GDR has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 111 of 304 (390431)
03-20-2007 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by GDR
03-20-2007 11:00 AM


Re: Evolution -- God's Design
quote:
I agree that it doesn't require an IDer, but it does require a first cause. Evolution is what happened after the whole process was set in motion, whether it was by natural or supernatural means. It is the same one way or the other.
That's true, but that is not at all what you were claiming before.
What rational justification do you have for claiming that the first cell [b]could not[/i] have come about through naturalistic means?
All you have provided so far is your personal incredulity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by GDR, posted 03-20-2007 11:00 AM GDR has not replied

ikabod
Member (Idle past 4492 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 112 of 304 (390434)
03-20-2007 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by GDR
03-20-2007 10:37 AM


Re: Evolution -- God's Design
quote[ I just suggested that with the millions of years of evolution that we have had that the best design would now be in place. ]
what you seem to forget it the enviroment is not static , what was a good design can fast become a bad design when changes in temperture , rain fall, etc occur.
in fact very good designs are hazardous if the creature becomes to specific to its current enviroment , and then the enviroment changes .
also where there has been little change we do see very suited creatures over the long time span .. sharks are a good example ...been around ages , hard to beat in design terms fror catchuing a fish , and have had a fairly constant enviroment to live in ,
and yet they lack some of the more "today" features we have . ie large brains able to build trawler to catch fish by the thousands so are we better dsigned sharks ? ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by GDR, posted 03-20-2007 10:37 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by GDR, posted 03-20-2007 3:32 PM ikabod has not replied

AdminQuetzal
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 304 (390439)
03-20-2007 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by gimelnus
03-20-2007 10:25 AM


Re: Michael Shermer
No problem. Go to forum Proposed New Topics (click). Push the button marked "New Topic", then copy/paste your post in the thread provided. Try and come up with a descriptive title that shows what you want to talk about. I'll take a look and promote it as soon as possible.
Edited by AdminQuetzal, : Wrong account

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by gimelnus, posted 03-20-2007 10:25 AM gimelnus has not replied

gimelnus
Junior Member (Idle past 6217 days)
Posts: 4
From: Little Rock
Joined: 03-19-2007


Message 114 of 304 (390457)
03-20-2007 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
03-20-2007 10:48 AM


Re: Michael Shermer
While I welcome your not-so-subtle-rebuke, I shall leave it to the admins to punish me further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 03-20-2007 10:48 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by AdminAsgara, posted 03-20-2007 2:13 PM gimelnus has not replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 115 of 304 (390459)
03-20-2007 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by gimelnus
03-20-2007 1:54 PM


Re: Michael Shermer
Please consider this quote from jar's post that you replied to official.
Welcome to EvC. We're glad that you joined us, but doing long cut & pastes from your blog is not really debating. If you want to make a comment and then provide a link over to your blog, even quote a piece of it, that's fine, but we don't really debate websites here, rather other individuals.
In addition, except for the words Intelligent and Design being included in your rhapsody, nothing in your tome is really related to the topic in this thread.
The topic in this thread revolves around living things. If you look at living things, those things we can actually observe, do they appear to be a product of Intelligent Design?
Please take any issues with this post to the appropriate thread listed in my signature box.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by gimelnus, posted 03-20-2007 1:54 PM gimelnus has not replied

    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 116 of 304 (390478)
    03-20-2007 3:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 102 by nator
    03-20-2007 9:13 AM


    Re: Evolution -- God's Design
    nator writes:
    You accept that purely naturalistic evolutionary forces work on nature at least part of the time, but when it comes to the creation of the first cell, you say that they couldn't have been responsible.
    I'd like to know your justification for this position.
    I have not said that the creation of the first cell could not have come about by naturalistic evolutionary forces. I am just saying that there is no empirical evidence one way or the other.
    GDR writes:
    Because there is something rather than nothing.
    nator writes:
    Philosophical question, not a scientific one.
    Absolutely.
    nator writes:
    "Complex" relative to what other life and what other world and Universe?
    The adjective "complex" only makes sense as a comparison.
    What other Universe, world, and life have you compared ours to?
    Complex by human standards. Just read cavediver's posts.
    nator writes:
    All of these congnitive features are known to have natural, biological origins. Read some Cognitive and or Social Psychology sometime if you are interested in learning about current research.
    You claim that they are known. I have read some naturalistic theories about how we came to have consciousness, self awareness and altruism but I have never seen any empirical proof. Dawkins has made claims that we have "memes" but no one has ever found one. Can you provide a scientific proof that explains why we have consciousness. I can't see where naturalistic theories that can't be tested empirically are any more scientific than saying God did it.
    nator writes:
    Dolphins, Elephants and Bonobo Chimps, for example, also have self-awareness. Capuchin monkeys have something close to self awareness but their's seems to be intermediate betwwen true and nonexistent self-awareness. Since those species are known to have very high intelligence and complex social structures, just like humans do, it is reasonable to conclude that self-awareness is an emergent property of the brain.
    Other animals, like Bonobo's and other social monkeys, also have moral codes. They recognize fairness and reciprocity, for example.
    So what? I agree that animals have consciousness.
    nator writes:
    Love is easily understood from a social psychology and biochemical standpoint without any supernatural source needed.
    It may be easily understood but why love exists at all can have either physical or metaphysical explanations but once again it isn't scientific.
    nator writes:
    What does this mean to your claim of an IDer?
    It certainly appears as though it's nothing more than a big brain that is the source of those specific attributes you listed, considering that several non-human species, which also have big brains, have them.
    I’m not convinced that it is restricted to animals with big brains but I don’t see it as being germane anyway. As I say, I don’t disagree that animals have consciousness.
    nator writes:
    Please remember, that even if we never understand how the first cell came about, that does not constitute positive evidence for an IDer.
    I agree. Once again it is a philosophical or theological point not a scientific one. We can either accept that there is an Intelligent Designer or that we are the product of nothing but naturalistic forces. (There is also the option of saying that it is unknowable but that is something of a cop-out.) I happen to find the argument for an IDer more compelling and you find the naturalist argument more compelling. Neither of our positions are scientific as they can't be tested empirically.
    I believe that we live in a created universe and that we have been given questioning minds. I see scientific research as the way we learn about that creation.

    Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 102 by nator, posted 03-20-2007 9:13 AM nator has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 144 by nator, posted 03-21-2007 8:39 AM GDR has replied

    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 117 of 304 (390481)
    03-20-2007 3:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 112 by ikabod
    03-20-2007 11:31 AM


    Re: Evolution -- God's Design
    ikabod writes:
    what you seem to forget it the enviroment is not static , what was a good design can fast become a bad design when changes in temperture , rain fall, etc occur.
    I agree with your point. I don't agree that because there are perceived flaws we should reject evolution. I was only trying to point out that nator's argument that we should reject the concept of an intelligent designer because of perceived flaws is not a good argument either.

    Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by ikabod, posted 03-20-2007 11:31 AM ikabod has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 118 by crashfrog, posted 03-20-2007 3:53 PM GDR has replied

    crashfrog
    Member (Idle past 1466 days)
    Posts: 19762
    From: Silver Spring, MD
    Joined: 03-20-2003


    Message 118 of 304 (390485)
    03-20-2007 3:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 117 by GDR
    03-20-2007 3:32 PM


    Re: Evolution -- God's Design
    I was only trying to point out that nator's argument that we should reject the concept of an intelligent designer because of perceived flaws is not a good argument either.
    It's a great argument, actually, unless you lower your expectations for what an omnipotent eternal figure should be capable of. You have, apparently.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 117 by GDR, posted 03-20-2007 3:32 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 119 by GDR, posted 03-20-2007 4:23 PM crashfrog has replied
     Message 121 by anastasia, posted 03-20-2007 5:31 PM crashfrog has not replied

    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 119 of 304 (390486)
    03-20-2007 4:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 118 by crashfrog
    03-20-2007 3:53 PM


    Re: Evolution -- God's Design
    crashfrog writes:
    It's a great argument, actually, unless you lower your expectations for what an omnipotent eternal figure should be capable of. You have, apparently.
    I would agree that it would be an argument if I held the position that I believed that we were instantly created, but as I don't we are still subject to evolutionary forces. Also, we have no idea if we are a final product of evolutionary design or not. I still contend it is a weak argument against Theistic Evolution.
    I believe that we are more than just physical beings. I see us as spiritual beings in a physical body. (This is philosophical and 100% non-scientific.) If I'm correct in believing that our spiritual component survives physical death then I guess the design that I'm most concerned about is the design of whatever body, (be it physical or whatever), that I inhabit in the next life. I have to admit though that I'm enjoying the current one and hope to stick around for some time yet.

    Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 118 by crashfrog, posted 03-20-2007 3:53 PM crashfrog has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 126 by crashfrog, posted 03-20-2007 7:30 PM GDR has replied

    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 5952 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 120 of 304 (390488)
    03-20-2007 5:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 89 by nator
    03-20-2007 12:05 AM


    Re: Evolution -- God's Design
    nator writes:
    The moment that an ID supporter points to a poor design feature as proof that we were intelligently designed, I'll eat my hat
    Well, technically even Biblical creationists acknowledge flawed humanity. It is not a given that the body is seen as perfect, just maybe more common.
    My only point was that using our own concept of God and His perfection is not proof of no design. Obviously there is no evidence of Designer, and that is not a problem. Logically however, flaw = no Designer is not correct.
    Someone mentioned pouches for human reproduction, like marsupials. I don't believe the rest of our body would support a pouch idea. I am still asking if anyone here would view the body we have as the best possible, or if they could think of intelligent improvements that would actually work. If evolution is not finished, we will see improvements eventually. Or at least adaptations. It is somewhat interesting that a non-intelligent process could produce results that intelligence can not foresee or control. In a certain perspective, what we do have is 'perfect' to the extent that we are the best possible set of trade-offs possible within our limitations.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 89 by nator, posted 03-20-2007 12:05 AM nator has not replied

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