Who's More Moral?

Ringo: "All men alike stand condemned, not by alien codes of ethics, but by their own, and all men therefore are conscious of guilt." (C.S. Lewis / The Problem of Pain)A Christian cannot say with any good sense, that an atheist cannot be good. We can only say that with a naturalist framework there is no complelling reason to be good, since good is whatever benefits you and your survival.If you don't believe me, then perhpas Kai Nielsen: (Kai Nielsen, “Why Should I Be Moral?,” American Philosophical Quarterly 21 (January 1984), 90.)

Not in the slightest the way I see it... because all men will die. Your survival is not even in question my young apprentice.Why should you change for me... or my offspring?How does it benefit you or your survival other than invoking some meaningless metaphysical or quazi-emotional plea for existential meaning (non-emperical hocus pocus)?I suppose in the mean time, that you (not me) are willing to obey the politically correct doctrine and do what you have to do in order to get ahead in this society. But that pertains only to your immediate survival, and does nothing to convey whether or not you are truely moral (if said political expedience is in a Christian culture). To you, it appears that being moral is only a survival mechanism, and is in no way neccesarily genuine.Ringo might not approve of your approach.So good to be back...

Kuresu:It is only important to us because of these fraudulent religious impositions of Justice, Mercy, and Sacrifice...In the Utilitarian and Naturalist reality, no! What benefit is it to me? I only have one life and then I am dead. Is it my fault or responsibility that my family is dealt a chaotic and chance hand of death? They're gonna die anyway. It is inevitable. Why should I sacrifice my own wants and dreams? For some emotional concoction of chemical stimulants called endorphines and the like which give me some irrelevant feeling of nobility?My family? You mean the stupid creatures that procreated me into this disgusting and dreadful existence???They are just chemicals combined in such a way as to appear to be alive. In fact, they are only matter organized in such a fashion as to create all kinds of conflicting ideas and feelings. All of which is ultimately fleeting and non-entity. It is all relative to illusory persepective and then gone... into mindless random events and circumstances.Give me one good reason why I should give a wit about any of them if all of my emotional ties are ultimately just material and not real in terms of some immortal consequence or destiny?There is no Hell to pay. There is no Glory to gain. What will they care after they are gone. They won't remember anything. If we quit believing in this God stuff and just realize we are mere machines, then they would have no such illusions that anyone would save them from death. They wouldn't even expect it other than for their own selfish interests.Do they think I am a fool? To be is better than to not be, and I intend to live it to the full. No moral boundary is going to stop me from obtaining my dreams. There is no reason I cannot have them, other than the interest of others who are too stupid to realize that all of these pleasantries are merely illusions that get in the way of real progress.I could go on, but what is the point? As Steven hawking said, "Yes man is determined. But since we don't know what that is, he might as well not be."So let history take it's course... There is nothing you or I can do about it. Understanding our existence... is utterly futile!Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Anglagard:You and your cohorts are the ones who wish it to be only a game. And some of you will even admit why. [Aldous Huxley, Ends and Means, 1937]Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

tudwell:Ok... define good!

No No... I was playing the devil's advocate in response to his apprentice (parenthetically, I unfortunately called him my own apprentice by mistake, but he corrected me).But thank you for confirming that for me. You do realize then, that Christians such as myself are a direct threat to the survival of humanity as defined by a naturalistic philosophical worldview, because we are stupid enough to believe in the ressurection of the dead and are therefore seeking survival not in the present but the next life?So... what are you gonna do about it?I only ask because we all know that morally superior, atheistic cultures and their leaders... are not capable of genocide for the sake of humanities true greatness and potential.Glory to man in the highest!Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Well, I concede that I cannot 'imagine' as well as you. I deal less and less with imagintation and fairly tales, and more with reality each day. But you can wish it away... just 'imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try. Imagine all the people, living life in peace'...Just wish it into being. Thy will be done, on earth, as it is in your imagination. Think positive Kuresu. Don't let the facts stand in your way. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Phat:Yes, that is important for those who seek to actually understand the issue regardless of the consequences for thier own ambitions. However... it matters not, when the only pragmatic perspective for morality is, in fact, one that is discounted as a faith based system.So really... how much value is there in admitting that "I think this", and "you think that"? where is level three philosophy going to get anyone? We must question our own worldview with the same scrutiny we use against our detractors whom challenge us relentlessly.And we do! As you and I admit time and time again that we too easily accepted insufficient reasoning to make our arguments, our opponents do no such thing. The phony friendships and unworthy loves are repulsing.There is no pragmatic perspective for morality apart from the transcendent. And that is what Kai Nielsen admitted to his atheistic brethren as I pointed out to Ringo in my response: http://EvC Forum: Who's More Moral? -->EvC Forum: Who's More Moral?Of course he did not endorse the view that morality is God given, but in confessing it's incoherence with the alternative philosophical frameworks, he implicitely acknowledges such a temporary surrender. (Kai Nielsen, “Why Should I Be Moral?,” American Philosophical Quarterly 21 (January 1984), 90.)Kant's catagorical imperitive has failed. That is old news for those doing their homework... And that is what led to Existentialism. But I digress...This confidence, that apart from God, we can find this Unity in Diversity better known as, 'human dignity' and 'goodness' to bring into balance our natural desire to be free from those very boundaries... is maddening. How can we be Godly without God, unless we are willing to define ourselves as God? There is no other thing to call it than Godliness, since that is it's origin. That is real history.Iris Murdoch wrote about this very thing in her critique of Kant's Groundwork of Ethics: (Murdoch / 1970 / The Sovereignty of Good)But that does not stop them? No! The existential desire for goodness (the root word of goodness being God) is so strong and powerful, that they intuitevely know, that it is even more natural than the desire to be autonomous. Yet when the bible says that God wrote His Law upon our hearts, they scoff and seek since the beginning of time to find another explanation.The enlightenment, renaissance, empericism, rationalism, modernism, and post-modernism have changed nothing. It still goes back to the garden of Eden when Satan challenged God's unique and post natural revelation by way of our conscious, and asked, 'Did God really say this'? (Has He revealed Himself in this way?)And so we ask after giving in to this inviting fruit, "why cannot I be God?" And so it is that Satan said, 'God knows that on the day that you eat of it, you shall become as God!'They have great faith that although no-one as yet has been able to show why we should be moral as opposed to amoral, that some great vissionary will come along with an answer so convincing, that only the clearest thinkers on earth will even dare to question his sufficiency.You see Phat? Faith is very pragmatic. It just takes into account a larger playing field that so many assure us is out of the bounds. And that is ironic since they seek freedom from the bounds of this escruciating test.Talking to them is pointless. That is why Jesus said, 'follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead'.Not because He doesn't love them enough to diefor them, but because they don't and will not.The only thing we can do is give the truth undiluted. By diluting it, we have been deceived into quietly endorsing their sophistry.That is my vision, and I know that not everyone reading this whom I have battled here falls into this catagory. but those who do, know who they are.

I don't know Ringo... I have gone round and round in my own mind, "Should I even respond"?At some point you just have to let go...I have pages worth of response in mind to put these shallow assumptions of yours to rest. I've spent the last two days thinking about it off and on.But at the moment I just returned from Reno, and I have three sick children to attend to...It'll simply have to wait... but I can't!Suffice it to say for now, you take for granted so much in terms of the moral assumptions we expect, and the foundations for what goodness you enjoy and benefit from today.The 3 years of active life that represent the ministry of Jesus, corrosponded to a shift in civilization so profound, that there is no peer in History.And you ask for performance...It is maddening!He provided, and He owned.That's the theme. I have much more to expound upon it soon.

I don't have the time I once did to play this tit for tat (well, I am not willing to give it at the expense of my other responsibilities anyway). So you guys take you shots. I just can't respond to it all. You've no intention that I see of giving any of it the consideration it deserves.Same for you Kuresu... There are many skeptics (unbelievers) who know better(see Lecky quote below). You forget where the moral fortitude of many of these historical moments like the French Revolution originated. That is, in such a fashion as to give the men who fought for them, the fortitude and inner strength to die and suffer for ideals held in high regard... even by you. Ideals that had been perverted by men who saw their relgion as a tool. Not intrinsically real, but only as a means to an end for power.And Ironically, when someone like myself actually believes they are realities, you scoff with the heckling of cynicism and sarcasm.And I assume you think that imposing power is 'wrong' and infringes upon real and inaliable rights. If naturalism and survival are the rule, then they absolutely affirm such power grabs as good. Nature cares not for numbers or even species. Under her care, we have no right to even exist.But do the masses rebel against such tyranny and win only on contrived moral grounds they use to manipulate the masses into an insurgence?Is it all a lie on both sides?
So one dictatorship is replaced by another and so on? All on false premises?
Or are these 'wrongs' rebelled against, actually wrong intrinsically?Natualism won't give you that. You'll have to go against reality and nature herself and attempt to impose moral grounds upon an amoral universe. It is unnatural. And though men may convert under duress, the cosmos defies our isolated delusions of granduer.Can you lassoo the cosmos? You'll need a big rope...Do you want to know who is ultimately in control? Purely and theoretically it is reality (whatever it may be). Reality is God.What is reality's nature?Morality is lawful and orderly. Morality appears, only if the intrinsic reality is itself moral. Otherwise it is mere anti-reality.As Steve Turner said, '... If chance be the father of all flesh, disaster is his rainbow in the sky.
And when you hear, 'state of emergency'...
bomb blasts school,
youths go looting...
it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker.'I don't know about you... but I see that when light is transposed for darkness, chaos and death become God! The sovereign reality becomes death and only death. Our only alternative is the opposite, that the sovereign reality is Life.There was only one person who owned such morality in the way you say must be done for it to be genuine Ringo. And His life is so intrinsically real and sovereign that death could not hold Him. (Lecky / History of European Morals / vol. II. 9)When you say it must be consistent, you are referring to His disciples such as me. And you are making a hit against the failings of us to live such ideals in fullness. What you are asking for is to see really moral beings before you will accept that that is the answer, and what will lead to peaceful co-existence sought by so many.But if that is what you are doing, then you are assuming that reality is good (Godly)!If you assume it is bad (ungodly), then these conversations are pointless since our fighting and death is what we are accidently here for.But you lie...The fact is, that the more moral we are, the more you despise us. Because the more moral we are, the more we tell the truth about morality without defference to your wishes to be told what you want to hear.A moral being will not sanction immorality. To do so would be immoral. And so an absolute moral being will always challenge the relative and wicked establishment. That is why He said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword.And that is why they crucified Him.And if someone comes along and is actually perfect, you too won't even believe that He is. YOu too crucify Him in Spirit. It matters not if it is promised that He is coming in the future, or two thousand years in the past. You don't believe that reality is made of such substance. You cannot do it...Because if you did, you'd have to give up everything for Him or consciously embrace the fact that you are anti-reality. You don't want absolute Life. You want a shadow of it... a half life. You become God's enemy.Morality... if it exists... is not only an intrinsic part of God and His very nature, but He is the only one who can own it! If we want it, we must by implication realize that we are not, and turn to the only thing that can impart it to us.He will not give us all of His power and omnisience. We can't handle it. We would use it to enslave our brothers. But He will give us more than we could gain by our own wisdom. What goodness there is in the world now is of Him. It is a reality not because you are good, but because you are created in His image. You were created to be Godly. But you don't want that!If we don't want morality, and instead choose to worship and become like the reality of our own (creating a God in our own image) then it is not our sin that condemns us (that has been paid for on the cross) but the fact that we willingly choose to reject the idea of worshipping the God of Life that condemns us.We condemn ourselves to the very thing we hate."I am the way, the truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father, but by me."The alien has landed. The invasion and rebellion against this world of death has been won. And He is only alien to us because He is good. And though He took the blame, punishment, and responsibility for our depravity upon Himself and invites us to come and follow Him to the home we long for, and were made for, so many hide from Him and persecute the human traitors who follow.It's not about who's more moral. It's about whether or not morality is even real.Be careful what you believe...Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Is it not you, who claims to create your own, and therefore own it?I, on the other hand, certainly do point to something else.And like the Pharisees addressing the court of public opinion before Pilot, you point at the same Lord and emphatically say, "He is not our King (sovereign reality and messiah). He is a blasphemer. Crucify Him."And He gives you the right to have your own way, as you pour your scorn and derision upon Him without any grounds for doing so. He drinks up your hate to the full without repayment and says, "Father forgive them. They know not what they do!"And still you only dodge and weave. Put your fingers in your ears, tear your robes, and condemn! Love and silence in return, makes you only more bitter.The Pharisees owned their morality, and Christ threatened their establishment and kingdom they were trying to build in the name of the God (reality) they rejected.You certainly do own it as well.You go on and make your own bed. You can have it...I'll take the one I was made for.

I was just thinking of you this morning PD...
...because of that whole 'you say peshat' I say 'howditgo?' signature of yours.Purpledawn: I disagree completely...The Pharisees held themselves to a very high standard. And everyone else as well... Mostly in outward ways that we all tend to judge.All they did was project and protect from the real thing. They owned it! And no-one was better than them in their own minds. No one had the right to question them. They were doing all the right things. But as you said, had no understanding of the fact that it needs to be done for the right motive.For example (and there are many), contributing to a charity does not make the person charitable if it is only done for Public Relations sake. It does not take away from the goodness of the deed. It is still God's graces upon the needy. But it is of no immortal value to the soul of the giver, if he is carrying his own name.Such a man says in his heart... 'Everyone look at me, and see how generous I am.'An alterior motive, on top of the immediate gain politically, may be that he believes that by doing so, he will begin to see himself more and more as good, and by his own bootstraps improve his own 'actual character' by discipline. By thinking positive he can change his self image. And if one feels good... then one must be good. It gives him the power to project an image that he himself begins to worship.Such is the religious man...
He has no real need for Christ, since he can do it on his own. Jesus to him, is simply an archetype of himself. No better and no worse.So when Jesus came along and unmasked them, they were outraged. They believed the Messiah was coming to lift them up and give them reign over their enemies.Jesus said to love your enemies. And that made no sense to them. I they really had the truth, then they would give their lives to share it with others. They wanted to hold it over others...They were so fearful that someone might unmask them, that they kept the population in fear and under the thumb of guilt. There was no equality in need for forgiveness. They had no concept of being like the stumbling fools that were pyschologically broken and emotionally damaged. Spiritual maturity to them was in their strength and not their weakness.Opening up and admitting that they lusted and hated secretly in their hearts was not an option...What would people think? They had to set an example in spite of the truth.You're right PD... they had missed the Spirit of the law.But I do not think that is what Ringo means at all. And I don't really care whether he admits it or not. We're all the same. There is no better than.In terms of degree, we may be better than our neighbor and should therfore be wiling to share lovingly what we have to offer. But in terms of kind, We have all fallen short of the glory of God.You see? The only thing that makes men equal in moral terms, is if there is a standard that transcends you and I.We're all the same. All starting from where we are to become more like Him.He didn't condemn us. He offers to show the way.The question is... do we want it?And that is where you have the right to choose. I have made my choice, and give what I have (as disgusting as it may be) to show the world it is for real.Very few are interested as the good old U.S. of A. has become a land of kings and pharisees.Who is willing to be put to shame and admit who they really are in their heart, with the kind of judgementalism that is the spirit of the age?And if you think your heart is pure... then you are a liar. You're sick and in need of a doctor. And He waits for you to call the office. His services are free to all.But you will likely only mock the riff-raf who get on their knees and actually believe that God will answer, and you will never know what it is like to have been spiritually blind, and now see because you will not throw away your phony good name in exchange for honest and legitimate humility. Especially if that means disavowing and learning to live without the pleasures you worship as sacred.You don't need that. You are good. You own it...

Ringo:I do not deny that your morality performs better in this world than my own...It will get you places... I have no doubt about it. As Satan said to Jesus, 'bow down and worship me, and all the kingdoms of the earth I will give to you.'What I live and especially preach does tremedous damage to my political life. I am going against the winds of change, and folks don't like it. And worse, I have the audacity to tell them they are wrong and should reconsider.Your presupposition, is that performance in this world is the final authority. That is what I would expect from a secular worldview. But the reason you see no evidence for God is not because it isn't there... it's everywhere!The reason is that you don't want to see God for what He is. You want to see your own God. Thou shall not create a graven image...I am not living for this world, but for the one that was and is to come. I'll be dead soon. No since trying to save my skin at the expense of what is right.As Jesus plainly asked, "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"And then He asks a shocking question... "What will you give in exchange for your soul?"That is what sooooo many miss...It's not about belief. I believe only because I made the trade; my life for His. I have made contact with the Living God. Thanks to Him, I know the truth.I no longer have to make adjustments and create reality in my own image. I have no such right because I am not God.Do you even now hear the clock?Proverbs 20:5 The purposes of a man's heart are deep waters, but a man of understanding draws them out.Job 38:11 ...'This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'?Time calls your bluff! Eternity invites you without condemnation.

Derash... yeah that was it...I understand completely PD.Purpledawn:But you are taking one verse out of the whole context. The pure in heart are those who are honest. Even about their impurity. And that is the only thing that makes us bend our knee.I don't mind you calling my interpretation a sermon and yours reality. I won't knock you for prophecying also. But I will call it false. Not by my own standards, because I have no such rights, but by God's Word.Now let's put that verse into perspective...Who is pure in heart?Mr 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
Lu 18:19
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.Ro 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks GodThat is very interesting to me.... The only way to find God is for Him to reveal Himself. And when He does we crucify Him.Ps 14:3 All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.So when we take all of these verses into a larger picture and not pick and choose that which does not threaten us, what is the picture that emerges?How do we reconcile Mt 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God?It is very easy... you take His words in context. Let's look at His whole sermon in Mt 5 (if a sermon doesn't offend you...)Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.Notice that the poor in spirit, not the rich and confident are blessed. Notice that the downtrodden and sad are rich because they recognize their depravity.but those who own their goodness and are strong. those who think they are good (God), are too wealthy to lower themselves and bend their knee to He who actually owned Goodness because he is God.Do you recognize Him?No... for He is your enemy. Your competitor...And Paul speaking to Christians reminded them: Col 1:21
Once you were alienated from God and were His enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.Jas 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.The pure heart is the repentant heart PD... it is justified not by works, but by faith in the purity of God. God will run to us if we just be honest about that. He will show Himself.Luke 15:18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20 So he got up and went to his father. "But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. 21 "The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' 22 "But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.But if we hold our 'good name' among those of the world in relative terms, at the expense of 'real' incarnate and absolute goodness Himself... then we must trample His name to keep ourselves lifted high.Only in recognition of sin can we become pure. For without that, there is no purity in us. It is not our sin that sends us to hell, nor God's will. But our sesire to remain hidden behind fig leaves, so that no-one will know what it is we have done.It is a charade... a pretend goodness, that leaves no room for going back and correcting mistaken basics. It is condemnation to the status quo...Being anti-God, or anti-truth is not just some anti-christ figure who will come, so much as it is you and me before we are reborn from the attitude and spirit of opposition and rebellion.2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Ringo:Performance?Based on what assumed means, and what assumed ends Ringo?what are you assuming needs to be accomplished?
And what are the motives for believing that???You try to seperate that which inseperable.You create a false dichotomy with smoke and mirrors.Do you do it on purpose, or are you a blind man?You cannot seperate the football field from the land that transcends it. And you cannot seperate the land from the planet, or the planet from the sun etc...No Kansas = no field...What I wonder about is... what is more evil?
The man who knows admits what his ends and means truely are?
Or the one who pretends not to hear and see his own desperate and wicked soul?The only reason I even continue this charade, is because I believe you are in some way ignorant. If not you, perhaps Kuresu, or Pd, or whoever.I have a hard time believing that any man is overtly and consciously evil and intentionally deceptive... because God has given light to every man. you all know what is right. No one has to tell you. And even if you don't expect it from yourself, you expect it from others. And such realitites unmask the most clever hypocrite.Maybe you are angry because I am not better at my own duplicity. Maybe I'm not that smart.Well, then I thank God for not giving me any more brains or capacity than I have. Because I was barely able to give it all up. Had I actually 'been somebody' in this sick world, I might have never seen my own blindness.Total psychopaths may be more common today, but I do not believe in them. I refuse to accept their existence. I will operate as though they do care, lest I stop caring myself.There is Aldous Huxley to consider, even if PD wishes there was not. I don't need your confession in order to know your real intent. (Aldous Huxley, Ends and Means, 1937)I'll tell you that the quote above is not more moral simply because of it's frankness. Admitting motive with the intent of continuing to do so is not repentance. It's not an acknowledgement of wrongdoing, it is an acknowledgement of not really caring which you have also done when pressed to the limit. (C.S. Lewis ' The Problem of Pain / Chapter 4 Human Wickedness / pgs 48-50)Even secular psychologists agree in rare moments of honesty, much to your disadvantage Ringo: (Hobart Mowrer, "Sin, the Lesser of Two Evils," American Psychologist, 15 (1960): 301-304)This is a joke...It is not even debatable.What drives us to Christ is not love, but surrender brought about by the inescapable pain of reality encroaching. It is God finding us, and us finally (like Jacob) admitting who we really are.Someone wrote: And only one man holds the keys to unbind us.