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Author Topic:   There you Go,YECs...biblical "evidence" of "flat earth beliefs"
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 243 (390353)
03-19-2007 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by zcoder
03-19-2007 9:38 PM


anyways are creatinist considered lower races of humans?
becouse they believe?
YECs and Biblical Creationists are not a lower race, they are simply ignorant, deluded or lying. Those who are simply ignorant should be educated, those who are deluded should be treated with pity and those who are lying should be condemned.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by zcoder, posted 03-19-2007 9:38 PM zcoder has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 137 of 243 (390607)
03-21-2007 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by ICANT
03-21-2007 1:00 AM


Re: Re-Moving
Anyone help me here.
If the earth in its orbit were to drift 100 miles further away from the sun what would happen?
If the earth in its orbit were to drift 100 miles closer to the sun what would happen?
You need to remember that the folk who bring up things that might lead to questions such as those really haven't thought about the issue at all.
The Earth's diameter is almost 9000 miles. That alone means that one side of the Earth is 9000 miles further from the Sun than another side, every single day.
As others have pointed out, there are also variations due to the position of the Earth at any given time and there the change is on the order of almost 4,000,000 miles.
We also really don't know what the habitable range of a world would be. For example, if the earth were in the current orbit of Mars it does not appear that conditions would be much different than they have been here or even as they are in some parts of the Earth today.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ICANT, posted 03-21-2007 1:00 AM ICANT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 204 of 243 (391294)
03-24-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Mikael Fivel
03-24-2007 3:25 AM


then perhaps it is time for yuo to actually learn something.
this whole thread "signals" that *haha* people were so dumb back then because they thought the earth was flat, and we're so much smarter than they are because we use science to butter our bread.
Sorry but that is classic jabberwocky from the Christian Cult (actually more a Culture) of Ignorance.
Too many Christians really seem to panic when folk, even other Christians, point out the inaccuracies found in the Bible. The Bible simply reflects the knowledge of the peoples and milieu when parts were written. The authors of the Bible, at least most of those who wrote the Old Testament, did think the earth was flat. They did think that the sky was a solid dome with holes that could be opened or closed to allow the vast sea of water that was above the dome to pour out.
Those things do not mean that they were dumb, simply ignorant. Actually, from their knowledge base, the theories of water below, flat earth, sky dome and then waters above even made sense and could be supported by evidence.
so if i made the insinuation (to you) that you're aimlessly out to slam the book, i'm really sorry, i'm slightly frustrated that this forum "the Bible: Accuracy and Innerancy" seems more like "we'll try to create meaningless flaws out of nothing by destroying context and not even using the bible to argue it." to me.
The Bible Accuracy and Inerrancy Forum is a place to examine the accuracy and reliability of things in the Bible as FACT. To do that, things in the Bible must be tested against reality, against outside sources. In looking at Accuracy and Inerrancy the Bible is not tested against itself, the Bible cannot provide support for itself. One clue is that this forum is among the Science forums, and over here, the scientific method is used when examining the Bible.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-24-2007 3:25 AM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-25-2007 5:40 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 206 of 243 (391483)
03-25-2007 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Mikael Fivel
03-25-2007 5:40 AM


And you still missed the whole point of my message.
In Message 204 I attempted to point out to you that Bible Accuracy and Inerrancy is a Science Forum. It is not one of the Theological Forums.
and you're incorrect - the bible provides support for itself many times over, just not what you're looking for.
I'm sorry but that is called a circular argument. The Bible cannot provide support for itself scientifically, theologically or logically.
and if you think ignorant is what they were... read Job 41, the account of the Leviathan - it describes a creature much similar to a dinosaur sized dragon type animal.
I'm not sure you even know what ignorant means. You seem to think that it is some derogatory comment. It's not. It is a simple statement of fact. The authors of the Bible knew far less about the world than people living to day just as we are more ignorant than those who will come after us.
And I have read Job and Leviathan is NOT a description of a dinosaur.
even if the overwhelming majority of people back then believed the earth was flat, it does not make the bible any less accurate - you're simply proving that PEOPLE's logic and knowledge back then weren't as good as it is now.
Another nonsense statement where you contradict yourself. If their knowledge was not as good back then (and good is a really silly term) then they were more ignorant than we are today, doesn't it?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-25-2007 5:40 AM Mikael Fivel has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 211 of 243 (391506)
03-25-2007 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Mikael Fivel
03-25-2007 12:28 PM


Re: then what is it?
and jar, if it's not stating a dinosaur LIKE creature as i said, then what is it? those dimensions stated are that of a dinosaur to me, even the scientists who support your argument.
It is a mythical critter inserted as a plot device.
and really, the best people that argue the bible and make an impact are historians, biblical scholars, and archaeologists. why? because they're willing to dig INTO the bible and where it's from, who wrote it, going to the sites, physically digging up remains, reading contextual historic documents and one key thing... they READ the bible!
LOL
And what makes you think I have NOT read the Bible. In fact I'm willing to bet that I have worn out more Bibles reading them than you have ever owned.
they don't stand back, take snippets of scripture and scrutinize them based on what WE think is logic, or OUR amount of "scientific" knowledge, and it really seems more like you're just poking fun at scripture really.
Of course they do if they are honest. The only way to test the Bible is by testing it against the world and reality. There is no other honest way.
there are geologic structures that the egyptians, romans, and Israelites built in biblical timepoints that SCIENTISTS can't even explain.
First, no one builds geological structures, not the Egyptians, not the Romans, not the Israelites. However if you know of some human built structures that we can not explain, feel free to start a thread on them and we can discuss them.
The topic of this thread though is whether or not the authors of parts of the Old Testament thought that the earth was flat. On that, the evidence is pretty clear that they did think that the earth was flat.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-25-2007 12:28 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 2:08 AM jar has replied
 Message 216 by DorfMan, posted 03-26-2007 11:40 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 213 of 243 (391586)
03-26-2007 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 2:08 AM


Re: then what is it?
and notes the word circle (and depending on its context) translates from the hebrew word Chuwg to mean circuit or compass, indicating a spherical object.
Not true. It means circle. That is the problem with the Christian Cult of Ignorance. They seem to be Humpty Dumpty.
Louis Carroll writes:
Humpty Dumpty: When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.
Alice: The question is, whether you can make words mean so many different things.
Humpty Dumpty: The question is: which is to be master - that's all.
A circle is NOT a sphere.
And as to both reading and understanding the Bible, my experience has been that Atheists are far more likely to understand the Bible than any member of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. We get them here all the time, those who like Humpty Dumpty seem to think that they can make words mean whatever they want them to mean.
a mythical critter used as a plot device, clever. you know, God said it existed... hence his example of stating "LOOK at the Leviathan"... not "let's just say there's this large creature called a Leviathan" -and personally, if God said, i'm gonna believe it.
But you don't. You do not believe it was "Leviathan" but rather like Humpty Dumpty you make the word mean dinosaur.
Sorry but dinosaurs had been dead and gone for almost 65 million years by the time someone wrote that passge. That is the fact.
and jar, don't play cute with me, you know what i mean when i say that there are structures built by ancient civilizations we (as investigative scientists) can't even understand (how or why they were built).
No, I do not know what you are talking about and if it is anything other than more nonsense, start a thread on it.
as stated before, the Old testament is PRE-Aristotle in the first place, it doesn't make them ignorant to anything if NO ONE BACK THEN had any idea likewise of a flat earth concept, it was irrelevant to ANYTHING going on back then.
LOL
Of course it makes them ignorant. They were ignorant of the fact that the earth was a sphere, that it revolved around the sun, of DNA, of airplanes, of root beer floats, of tv, of computers, of the sheer joy of a BLT.
Ignorant does not imply dumb. Ignorant simply acknowledges something one doesn't know. You are pulling another Humpty Dumpty trying to make words mean what YOU want them to mean.
i was making clear too many people nowadays, ESPECIALLY on forums like this DON"T really READ and understand what the bible is saying -and if you're going to argue anything about it, READ IT FIRST!
Yes, we see such people here at EvC all the time. They are called Biblical Christians. So far it has been an almost universal truth that those who identify themselves as Biblical Christians are totally clueless about what the Bible actually says and means.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 2:08 AM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 11:53 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 218 of 243 (391592)
03-26-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by DorfMan
03-26-2007 11:40 AM


Re: then what is it?
There is a difference between reading and studying.
And what exactly makes you think I have not studied the Bible both formally and informally?
Understanding is not becoming Humpty Dumpty where YOU get to decide what the words mean.
The facts are that the authors of some of the Bible thought that the earth was flat. They thought that the sky was a solid dome with windows or openings in it that held back the waters above and could be opened or shut to allow rain. They thought that there was a solid platform called earth that sat on the waters below.
These were not unintelligent or unreasoning people. The could actually support such beliefs with evidence. If you look up, the stars and the sun and the moon move. Sometimes it rains. If there is water coming down it first had to be up there. But it does not always rain, so there had to be something that opened and closed to allow intermittent rain. You dig a hole, you find water. If the water is down there, there must be some vast waters below.
These were not illogical beliefs. Based on the knowledge they had at the time they were actually pretty reasonable.
They simply happen to be WRONG.
The authors of the Bible included their knowledge. It just happens that a lot of what they included was not true, it is false, it is incorrect.
Trying to make it correct totally misses the whole point of what folk were doing, what they were trying to say. To understand the Bible, we need to be able to point to those places where it is wrong, acknowledge that it is wrong and then move on. To try to make such things true is to raise the Bible to an object of worship and to move further away from the search for GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by DorfMan, posted 03-26-2007 11:40 AM DorfMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 12:09 PM jar has replied
 Message 237 by DorfMan, posted 03-26-2007 9:17 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 221 of 243 (391595)
03-26-2007 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 11:53 AM


On language
the word SPHERE didn't exist back then. Mathematicians made it up POST old testament. back the then word circle was used for MANY different figures... that had ANY amount of circularity to them. like say a hollow ring (we'd call it a hoop) that is placed on your head (like what we'd call a circlet) they'd simply call a CIRCLE. why? because the hebrew and greek languages don't make MORE THAN ONE word for more than one meaning like us americans have.
Again, you are simply wrong. If you wish to look at making more than one word to show shades of meaning simply look at the number of different Greek words designed to show different types of love, or of knowledge.
Actually, ancient languages tend to be more precise and limited than modern languages. That is one of the great inventions that has come about over time.
Can you do me a favor. Can you try using punctuation, capitalization, line breaks, white space between paragraphs and thoughts. As it is, your messages are virtually unreadable.
Are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church is not Christian? If so, then take that to another thread since it is irrelevant to this one.
If you are as ignorant of dating methods as your post indicates, then we have a whole forum devoted to dating, but again, it is irrelevant to this thread.
The fact is that this thread is about whether or not the authors of the Bible thought that the earth is Flat. The evidence is that they did.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 11:53 AM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 12:18 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 223 of 243 (391597)
03-26-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 12:09 PM


On where the Bible is wrong.
-where the BIBLE is wrong?
Yes where the Bible is wrong. And from there on your post is simply incorrect. I am not saying that your car is flawed, but simply that the tires are the wrong ones for some weather condition.
The Bible is nothing more than a Map. It is NOT the Territory. And like all Maps, it will have places where it accurately reflects the Territory, where it is close to the Territory and other areas where it is just plain wrong.
To understand the Bible, to read the Map, you must compare it to the Territory. When it is talking about the world we live in, we need to compare it to the Territory, the world we live in.
the thing that teases me most is that you say "what makes you think i don't study it or haven't studied it"... how about pointing out some scripture for the topic! telling us you have doesn't prove anything. crack it open, let's go, i wanna see some scripture!
Scripture has been posted in this thread many times. What we are doing is testing that against the real world.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 12:09 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 12:59 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 224 of 243 (391598)
03-26-2007 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 12:18 PM


Re: On language
and the hebrew word chuwg translated indicates a spherical object.
No, it indicates a circle.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 12:18 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 227 of 243 (391610)
03-26-2007 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 12:59 PM


You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
This thread is NOT about the teachings of Jesus. They are irrelevant to this thread, unimportant and unrelated. It is about whether or not the authors of parts of the Bible thought that the Earth was flat.
That is the topic.
AbE:
One other thing. The Bible is and was written by man. There is NOT even one accepted Canon so there is not even one Bible.
Man wrote the Bible.
GOD's word is the universe we live in. That GOD wrote, not man.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 12:59 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 2:10 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 229 of 243 (391622)
03-26-2007 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 2:10 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
I'm sorry but that is simply more jabberwocky.
It has NOTHING to do with the thread or the topic. Sheesh.
The question is not whether those folk saying such things were believers in the Biblical God, and there are many many such examples by folk that believed in the God of the Bible saying similar incorrect things, but what the folk of the period thought. And the people of the period, whether they believed in God or not, the people that wrote the Bible were just plain wrong. They did NOT understand that the earth is a sphere, in orbit around the sun, that the sky is not a dome and many other things.
i have an older study on this i'll have to dig up, regarding the translation of the original word for inspired, which happened to mean "breathed out" in, from what i remember, was either aramaic or greek. and no, the universe is not God's word, nowhere in the bible does it say that.
Look on your keyboard. I bet you will find two shift keys and an enter key. They are used to make capital letters and to provide breaks between paragraphs or thoughts. Try using them. It will make your posts easier to read.
It does not MATTER whether the Bible says that the Universe is God's word. That is irrelevant and immaterial to this thread.
God created the Universe. Man did not.
Man wrote the Bible. God did not.
It really is that simple.
The fact is that when it comes to describing the world we live in, the Bible is wrong.
but to you, providing evidences from people in the bible who thought the earth was flat may be a key evidence for ignorance, as you may say, is important.
Yes, sorry but it is evidence of ignorance. What is wrong with admitting that? All that it means is that they knew less about the universe than we know today. And we too will be seen as ignorant as we and those who come after us learn even more.
Ignorance is not a fault. It only becomes an issue when it becomes Willful Ignorance such as taught and practiced by today's Christian Cult of Ignorance. It only becomes a problem when Christians try to force ignorance into the education system, try to teach simply wrong and false concepts like Biblical Creationism, ID, Young Earth or that there was a world-wide flood.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 2:10 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 4:57 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 231 of 243 (391655)
03-26-2007 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 4:57 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
You just keep digging a deeper hole, don't you?
You just love to make stuff up.
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.
Yet another example of their ignorance. The Earth is not hung on anything.
The North dos not stretch out over empty space.
Job 28:25
To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.
Looks like some folk today are as ignorant about science as they were back then.
Wind does not have weight.
Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.
Gotta call bullshit on that one and it is a classic one used by the Christian Cult of Ignorance. It is not describing the hydrocycle.
they knew LOTS of things pertaining to science that took scientists hundreds of years to figure out, instead of just reading the book! they weren't ignorant!
More utter bullshit.
how about hydrothermal vents?
Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
yet more drivel from the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
That is just another example of mental masturbation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 4:57 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 5:48 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 233 of 243 (391664)
03-26-2007 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 5:48 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
Again, you are still missing the whole point of the thread.
You are taking modern translations based on modern usages and trying to shoehorn the ancient texts in.
Look at the same text from the KJV which was written before we understood how the system worked.
27For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly.
29Also can any understand the spreadings of the clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle?
30Behold, he spreadeth his light upon it, and covereth the bottom of the sea.
Just because we are less ignorant than the authors, there is no reason to pretend that they knew something they didn't.
The message of the Bible has nothing to do with whether or not the authors were accurate when talking about the real world. The Bible is not a science text.
The topic of this thread is whether or not the authors of parts of the Bible thought that the earth was flat.
They did.
Pulling out parts from the Bible and then trying to redact them into modern concepts is silly and pointless. The authors of the Bible were simply ignorant about how the universe operates.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 5:48 PM Mikael Fivel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 6:29 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 235 of 243 (391671)
03-26-2007 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Mikael Fivel
03-26-2007 6:29 PM


Re: You are still missing the whole point of this thread.
uh huh, and i'm not disagreeing with you on them thinking the earth was flat, i was saying that they weren't as ignorant as you thought.
LOL
If they thought the earth was flat then they were ignorant of the fact that it is not.
Sheesh. Thank you for finally agreeing that they were ignorant.
Edited by jar, : fix sentence

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Mikael Fivel, posted 03-26-2007 6:29 PM Mikael Fivel has not replied

  
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