Who's More Moral?

It's not just "purer motives" but a purer source of morality.To me, morality is "purer" if you own it, if it's a part of you. A morality that is injected/imparted/imposed by an external force is more like an invading pathogen.A "foreign morality" can seldom be assimilated/acclimated to the same extent as a "native-born morality". There's always a culture shock.

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There's your proof that there's no absolute morality. It's exterminate or don't exterminate on a case-by-case basis.Since we can't see into the future, we don't know what action will produce what outcome. Morality consists in doing what seems best now.

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As General Patton said:

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No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.

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You can turn your cheek and be a martyr or you can make the other guy a martyr.
It's all situational. And the accounting is done by each person in each situation. A genocidal maniac has his morals and a homicidal maniac has his. The collective morality frowns on both.Nobody said there's no competition between moralities.

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You make it sound like there's a World Utilitarian Committee that decides what is moral and what isn't.It's really more like a democracy: "the voters" don't make a collective decision. Each individual voter makes an individual decision and the sum becomes the collective decision.So "gaining the most good for the most people" is the sum of what each person thinks is the "most good for the most people". I feel like that in every thread. At least you have the advantage of knowing where you meant this one to go.

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The question "Who's more moral?" seems to imply a competition, but is one competitor clearly "superior" to another? Maybe sometimes one is ahead and maybe at other times another is ahead.In a competition, we don't just dwell on the weaknesses of our "opponent". For the long term, we look at his strengths to see how we can improve our own.

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To some extent, everybody has faith in their own moral principles.Nobody is discounting one moral "system" or another based on faith. The basis for evaluating a moral system is performance. Does it work?If a system produces inconsistent results, it's not because of one's faith in the system or the source of the system. It's because one doesn't "own" it, as I said earlier in the thread. That seems self-contradictory. Something can only be pragnatic insofar as the bounds of the playing field are pragmatic. There might be something "transcendent" about using the state of Kansas as a football field, but there is nothing pragmatic.

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I didn't say anything about somebody who may or may not have existed once upon a time.Any pragmatic demonstration would have to be by the troops on the ground today. If some followers of an ancient sect happen to have a sense of morality, that could be taken into consideration.Morality depends on who owns it now, not where it came from.

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I think I agree with the distinction you're making.A moral code is (usually) a collective thing, related to a social contract. Individual morality will sometimes be at odds with the local code.That's when it's important to really understand one's own morality. What is "mine" and what is "ours"? And what do I do when "we" try to usurp what is "mine"?

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Nobody's trying to impose anything on "the universe". Morality is only about how we govern ourselves in relationship to ourselves. No. It doesn't matter.Morality is about how we control ourselves - to the extent that we can control ourselves. What we don't control may be covered by some alien morality, but it has nothing to do with ours. Not at all. We all have possession of "morality", but only those who own their own can control it - or control themselves with it. Those of you who only rent their morality from some absentee landlord are constantly in fear of eviction, of rent hikes.... it doesn't matter how benevolent the landlord is, you can never be secure.On the other hand, those of us who own have to do our own maintenance. Well, if you claim a "superior" source for your morality, surely it's reasonable to expect some tangible result from that superiority. If you pay extra for a "luxury" apartment, don't you expect to get some luxuries?Surely there should be something you can point to other than "Rob says so." Something like that. If you claim that God guides your behaviour, then I would expect your behaviour to be better than somebody guided by, say, Gandhi. If there is no significant difference, what function does your guide serve? Morality is not a state of being - it's a method of action. It has no existence when you're standing still. Immorality is the failure to do what is moral. Our morality has nothing to do with God. It's possible that He has His own morality, but that has nothing to do with us. God's Ten Suggestions are for us to get along with each other. They don't effect our relationship with God.

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Weellll..... I suppose the "rent" would be surrendering one's will, control of one's own destiny. God gives us free will - that's our "salary" (pass Go - collect $200). Some people pay it back to Him by asking themselves, "What would God want me to do in this situation?" (Note that it's still themselves they are asking.) I think the "foreign source" of morality could be almost anything. Religious people may be more prone to "giving up ownership" because of the element of surrender in most religions. But any philosophy/worldview that is not sufficiently understood/internalized (I'm getting tired of saying "owned" ) can be a morality-crutch. I didn't say you shoulld. I said I do. I'm addressing those Christians (**points at Rob**) who do claim, explicitly or implicitly, that Christianity gives them a "moral edge". Posts addressed to me by professing Christians positively drip with superiority. I don't think the sheep and the goats are about our relationship with God. "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me," is about actions, not relationships.You can focus on the reward/punishment aspect of the story or you can focus on the sheep/goats metaphor. Does the Shepherd really have a different relationship with the sheep than with the goats?

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I wasn't talking about pointing to a source for your morality. I was talking about pointing to symptoms of your morality.Fever, coughing, etc. are the outward signs that somebody has a disease. It doesn't matter where they caught it, if there's no sign, they ain't got it.I also didn't claim to create my own morality. I said I didn't buy it off the lot from some used-morality dealer. The bits and pieces might have come from several sources, but I assembled them and fine-tuned them myself. Thus, I know intimately how it will handle on the curves - and why. So I can get better performance out of it with less danger of an accident. This thread isn't about your preferences. It's about how your morality performs, and possibly about how to improve that performance.

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We are talking about performance in this world. Atheists don't believe there is another world, so their morality can not be assessed on any other basis than this world.And Jesus agreed. Whether or not you get to heaven depends on your performance in this world:

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Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

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Edited by Ringo, : Removed superfluous sentence.

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There's surrender and then there's surrender.A prisoner of war surrenders, but all the while he's trying to escape and get back home to fight again. On the other hand, when we get married we surrender a large part of our individuality in favour of the partnership.The partnership type of surrender can be internalized, but the master/slave type never is. I'm content to just run over Rob, but you keep jumping out and flagging me down.

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I am assuming nothing. Need is irrelevant.The performance of a morality system depends only on what is perceived as "good".So, do you have anything at all to say about the topic?

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Everything normal here. Say three hail Marys and call me in the morning. I don't see how "Opinion, Preach, Preach, Preach" addresses the topic. Exactly. It's not about preferences at all. It's about how one's performance is perceived by one's peers. There are no standards because every situation requires a different performance. I can body-check in a hockey game but not in a cafeteria line. That's what I'm saying. It's not about your preference and it's not about an iron-clad set of standards. It's about how he performs in real-life situations.Since you can't always anticipate the goals, your expectations have to be flexible.

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