EvC Forum: Jesus's motives for performing miracles.

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Topic: Jesus's motives for performing miracles.

Larni

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Message 1 of 69 (357677)
10-20-2006 9:23 AM

If any one has been following The Great Debate thread between Iano and I they will be able to see how faith acts as the conduit for salvation through christ.

Now, I have been wondering (but not wanting to side track Iano as promised) exactly why Jesus felt the need to perform miracles.

It is clear that any one watching him transmogrify water to wine, heal the lame etc could not really doubt that someting psuedonatural is going on.

Does this not remove the 'faith' in his followers? People who believe that Jesus was the son of the xian god can point to Jesus and say "but see his power, he must be the son of our god".

Would xians have the opportunity to be more 'faithful' without the miracles?

So, my question is two fold:

What was the motive of Jesus in doing his miracles?

Do his miracles invalidate faith in xians because they give what many here at EVC have long asked for: evidence?

Faith (no pun intended)and belief please.

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	Message 3 by Brian, posted 10-20-2006 11:10 AM	Larni has not replied
	Message 4 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 11:28 AM	Larni has replied
	Message 5 by iano, posted 10-20-2006 11:56 AM	Larni has not replied
	Message 9 by jar, posted 10-20-2006 12:43 PM	Larni has not replied
	Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-22-2006 10:57 AM	Larni has replied
	Message 51 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 4:06 AM	Larni has replied

Larni

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Posts: 4000

From: Liverpool

Joined: 09-16-2005

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Message 17 of 69 (357846)
10-20-2006 7:17 PM

Reply to: Message 13 by Legend
10-20-2006 6:55 PM

Re: what about us?

Legend writes:

I'm just saying that if Jesus thought that those who didn't see were blessed, then why did be bother to show anyone at all? He could have just said he was the Son of God and leave them to it. Those who believed him would be truly blessed, as he said.

Exactly, why give any proof at all if 'faith' is the conduit of salvation?

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	Message 13 by Legend, posted 10-20-2006 6:55 PM		Legend has not replied

Larni

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Posts: 4000

From: Liverpool

Joined: 09-16-2005

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Message 18 of 69 (357850)
10-20-2006 7:38 PM

Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
10-20-2006 11:28 AM

Faith writes:

"Pseudonatural?" What does that mean?

Sorry Faith, thought supernatural would be insulting to people of faith.

Faith writes:

You can't have faith unless you have evidence.

I would contend that this is exactly wrong. Evidence removes the need for faith. If your god came down from it's cloud and said " look here you, I'm real" I would sure as hell believe it. Thats evidence, not faith.

Faith writes:

and it gives a foundation for believing the gospel of salvation.

I thought the meaage of the gospel (thanks Iano) was the salvation from the acceptance of ones sin and the acknowledgement of the role of Jesus in our salvation. Rather than an agreement that Jesus was divine by the evidence of miracles. Thats my point. Why miracles?

Faith writes:

What would there be to have faith IN in that case?

The words of Jesus?

Faith writes:

To demonstrate that He is indeed God and that one should put trust in Him.

Not required: if you have faith.

Faith writes:

Most of us creationists and Biblical Christians have argued all along that we DO have evidence, that the Bible is evidence.

Lets not do that dance.

Faith writes:

Glad you recognize that it is at least evidence.

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	Message 4 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 11:28 AM		Faith has replied

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	Message 21 by Faith, posted 10-21-2006 12:27 AM	Larni has not replied
	Message 24 by iano, posted 10-21-2006 7:35 AM	Larni has not replied

Larni

Member

Posts: 4000

From: Liverpool

Joined: 09-16-2005

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Message 47 of 69 (358272)
10-23-2006 8:45 AM

Reply to: Message 41 by Hyroglyphx
10-22-2006 10:57 AM

Re: Motivations

nemesis_juggernaut writes:

"And Jesus didn't perfrom very many miracles there because of their unbelief."

Is it then fair to say that there has to be belief for a miracle to occure and that the divine relies on the 'belief quotient' before it can actuate miracles?

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	Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-22-2006 10:57 AM		Hyroglyphx has not replied

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	Message 48 by b b, posted 10-24-2006 2:33 AM		Larni has replied

Larni

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Posts: 4000

From: Liverpool

Joined: 09-16-2005

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Message 49 of 69 (358466)
10-24-2006 6:13 AM

Reply to: Message 48 by b b
10-24-2006 2:33 AM

Re: Motivations

b b writes:

Faith the size of a mustard seed will move mountains.

Does it have to be faith in Jesus or your god to get the job done or is faith (directed towards which ever god) sufficient to perform a miracle?

If Jesus did do the miracles (here I assume he did), did he need faith or was it chanelled directly from your god. Was it faith doing it or certainty?

This is my point.

The miracles are a point of certainty.

Why were they needed if faith was such a metaphysical reality?

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	Message 48 by b b, posted 10-24-2006 2:33 AM		b b has not replied

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	Message 50 by iano, posted 10-24-2006 6:20 AM		Larni has not replied

Larni

Member

Posts: 4000

From: Liverpool

Joined: 09-16-2005

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Message 55 of 69 (358715)
10-25-2006 7:49 AM

Reply to: Message 51 by Archer Opteryx
10-25-2006 4:06 AM

Re: Yeshua the Healer

Archer writes:

They mean a person who is likely to suspend disbelief at the same points where they have been trained to suspend their own disbelief.

Damn good point, that man.

Archer writes:

No need exists for the miracle stories in the first place.

My thoughts exactly. This leads me to believe that Jesus had a personal motive for doing what he did.

Archer writes:

In the Synoptic narratives Yeshua regularly states that the only valid expression of love for God is through active compassion for others. As this is what he says, this is what he does.

Could one then say that Jesus performed the miracles to 'lead by example'?

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	Message 51 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 4:06 AM		Archer Opteryx has not replied

Larni

Member

Posts: 4000

From: Liverpool

Joined: 09-16-2005

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Message 69 of 69 (391747)
03-27-2007 6:40 AM

Reply to: Message 68 by b b
03-25-2007 5:07 PM

Re: Yeshua the Healer

Yay thread necromancy!

b b writes:

When we as people lose someone close to us we sometimes remember them a little more dramatic(I really can't think of a better word) than what the actual account was.

So we could say his motive for performing miracles was to cement his place in history? By making people remember his works in a more dramatic sense because of the miracalous nature of said works?

b b writes:

I do beleive Jesus was who "He" said "He" was.

Do you believe because of the miracles or because of faith alone? If it is faith; why miracles?

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	Message 68 by b b, posted 03-25-2007 5:07 PM		b b has not replied

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