Who's More Moral?

Rob said it does not matter who is more moral. Maybe not, but still it keeps on coming up...in the wrong places at that. This, is what I wanted to hear. Can you put the 'absentee landlord' analogy into practical terms? Examples of rent hikes, maybe?Do you believe that a pragmatic secular morality can also be on a proxy basis? Where you are letting society's morals stand in for your own?I do, and I feel it works both ways. The people I lose respect for are the stereo types who seem to prate the exact same speeches as their peers, be they atheist or theist. That is somewhat silly to me. Surely you know that many Christians believe God is guiding everyone's morality whether they like it or not? Why should I expect a Christian to be better than anyone else? Maybe they could be more motivated, or more indoctrinated, but in outward appearance I think we would do the same things as a very moral atheist. So it doesn't matter where it comes from, as you say. Maybe the last 7 suggestions. Love thy God, love thy neighbor. I don't think it appropriate to distinguish, but that they should go hand in hand. Love of God should beget love of neighbor, and love of neighbor would bring about further grace to love God. It ALL has to do with our relatioship with God. Remember the sheep and the goats? Maybe Luther would disagree, but then I never could quite get that faith/works thing.

Weellll..... I suppose the "rent" would be surrendering one's will, control of one's own destiny. God gives us free will - that's our "salary" (pass Go - collect $200). Some people pay it back to Him by asking themselves, "What would God want me to do in this situation?" (Note that it's still themselves they are asking.) I think the "foreign source" of morality could be almost anything. Religious people may be more prone to "giving up ownership" because of the element of surrender in most religions. But any philosophy/worldview that is not sufficiently understood/internalized (I'm getting tired of saying "owned" ) can be a morality-crutch. I didn't say you shoulld. I said I do. I'm addressing those Christians (**points at Rob**) who do claim, explicitly or implicitly, that Christianity gives them a "moral edge". Posts addressed to me by professing Christians positively drip with superiority. I don't think the sheep and the goats are about our relationship with God. "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me," is about actions, not relationships.You can focus on the reward/punishment aspect of the story or you can focus on the sheep/goats metaphor. Does the Shepherd really have a different relationship with the sheep than with the goats?

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Where do you think conscience comes from? I contend it is learnt.

Is it not you, who claims to create your own, and therefore own it?I, on the other hand, certainly do point to something else.And like the Pharisees addressing the court of public opinion before Pilot, you point at the same Lord and emphatically say, "He is not our King (sovereign reality and messiah). He is a blasphemer. Crucify Him."And He gives you the right to have your own way, as you pour your scorn and derision upon Him without any grounds for doing so. He drinks up your hate to the full without repayment and says, "Father forgive them. They know not what they do!"And still you only dodge and weave. Put your fingers in your ears, tear your robes, and condemn! Love and silence in return, makes you only more bitter.The Pharisees owned their morality, and Christ threatened their establishment and kingdom they were trying to build in the name of the God (reality) they rejected.You certainly do own it as well.You go on and make your own bed. You can have it...I'll take the one I was made for.

I think owning one's morals is what God was getting at when he said his laws would be written on our hearts. IOW, they should be internalized.If they aren't internalized, it's sorta like the people who behave differently when the boss is away.I also expect a certain level of good behavior out of people who I know are Christians or who claim to be Christians. IOW, if someone claims to be a Christian I should be able to trust them without knowing any more about them. Oddly enough, the one's I get disappointed by (not including some on this board) are the one's that should have internalized their morals.Unfortunately many use the excuse that they are a work in progress. I feel some of the problems stem from leadership, such as clergy or teachers, within a church not leading by example.But I don't see that Christians are more moral, we just know what their moral standards should be.
As far as I know Atheists don't put out a list.

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Why does someone believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but check when you say the paint is wet?

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The Pharisees owned their morality, and Christ threatened their establishment and kingdom they were trying to build in the name of the God (reality) they rejected.

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The Pharisees did not own their morals. The Pharisees portrayed in the NT writings were doing the minimum necessary in following the letter of the laws and to look good to the public.The point Jesus was trying to make was that they had not internalized the spirit of God's law. I feel that is what Ringo is talking about when he says "owning" morals.

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Why does someone believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but check when you say the paint is wet?

I wasn't talking about pointing to a source for your morality. I was talking about pointing to symptoms of your morality.Fever, coughing, etc. are the outward signs that somebody has a disease. It doesn't matter where they caught it, if there's no sign, they ain't got it.I also didn't claim to create my own morality. I said I didn't buy it off the lot from some used-morality dealer. The bits and pieces might have come from several sources, but I assembled them and fine-tuned them myself. Thus, I know intimately how it will handle on the curves - and why. So I can get better performance out of it with less danger of an accident. This thread isn't about your preferences. It's about how your morality performs, and possibly about how to improve that performance.

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I was just thinking of you this morning PD...
...because of that whole 'you say peshat' I say 'howditgo?' signature of yours.Purpledawn: I disagree completely...The Pharisees held themselves to a very high standard. And everyone else as well... Mostly in outward ways that we all tend to judge.All they did was project and protect from the real thing. They owned it! And no-one was better than them in their own minds. No one had the right to question them. They were doing all the right things. But as you said, had no understanding of the fact that it needs to be done for the right motive.For example (and there are many), contributing to a charity does not make the person charitable if it is only done for Public Relations sake. It does not take away from the goodness of the deed. It is still God's graces upon the needy. But it is of no immortal value to the soul of the giver, if he is carrying his own name.Such a man says in his heart... 'Everyone look at me, and see how generous I am.'An alterior motive, on top of the immediate gain politically, may be that he believes that by doing so, he will begin to see himself more and more as good, and by his own bootstraps improve his own 'actual character' by discipline. By thinking positive he can change his self image. And if one feels good... then one must be good. It gives him the power to project an image that he himself begins to worship.Such is the religious man...
He has no real need for Christ, since he can do it on his own. Jesus to him, is simply an archetype of himself. No better and no worse.So when Jesus came along and unmasked them, they were outraged. They believed the Messiah was coming to lift them up and give them reign over their enemies.Jesus said to love your enemies. And that made no sense to them. I they really had the truth, then they would give their lives to share it with others. They wanted to hold it over others...They were so fearful that someone might unmask them, that they kept the population in fear and under the thumb of guilt. There was no equality in need for forgiveness. They had no concept of being like the stumbling fools that were pyschologically broken and emotionally damaged. Spiritual maturity to them was in their strength and not their weakness.Opening up and admitting that they lusted and hated secretly in their hearts was not an option...What would people think? They had to set an example in spite of the truth.You're right PD... they had missed the Spirit of the law.But I do not think that is what Ringo means at all. And I don't really care whether he admits it or not. We're all the same. There is no better than.In terms of degree, we may be better than our neighbor and should therfore be wiling to share lovingly what we have to offer. But in terms of kind, We have all fallen short of the glory of God.You see? The only thing that makes men equal in moral terms, is if there is a standard that transcends you and I.We're all the same. All starting from where we are to become more like Him.He didn't condemn us. He offers to show the way.The question is... do we want it?And that is where you have the right to choose. I have made my choice, and give what I have (as disgusting as it may be) to show the world it is for real.Very few are interested as the good old U.S. of A. has become a land of kings and pharisees.Who is willing to be put to shame and admit who they really are in their heart, with the kind of judgementalism that is the spirit of the age?And if you think your heart is pure... then you are a liar. You're sick and in need of a doctor. And He waits for you to call the office. His services are free to all.But you will likely only mock the riff-raf who get on their knees and actually believe that God will answer, and you will never know what it is like to have been spiritually blind, and now see because you will not throw away your phony good name in exchange for honest and legitimate humility. Especially if that means disavowing and learning to live without the pleasures you worship as sacred.You don't need that. You are good. You own it...

Ringo:I do not deny that your morality performs better in this world than my own...It will get you places... I have no doubt about it. As Satan said to Jesus, 'bow down and worship me, and all the kingdoms of the earth I will give to you.'What I live and especially preach does tremedous damage to my political life. I am going against the winds of change, and folks don't like it. And worse, I have the audacity to tell them they are wrong and should reconsider.Your presupposition, is that performance in this world is the final authority. That is what I would expect from a secular worldview. But the reason you see no evidence for God is not because it isn't there... it's everywhere!The reason is that you don't want to see God for what He is. You want to see your own God. Thou shall not create a graven image...I am not living for this world, but for the one that was and is to come. I'll be dead soon. No since trying to save my skin at the expense of what is right.As Jesus plainly asked, "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"And then He asks a shocking question... "What will you give in exchange for your soul?"That is what sooooo many miss...It's not about belief. I believe only because I made the trade; my life for His. I have made contact with the Living God. Thanks to Him, I know the truth.I no longer have to make adjustments and create reality in my own image. I have no such right because I am not God.Do you even now hear the clock?Proverbs 20:5 The purposes of a man's heart are deep waters, but a man of understanding draws them out.Job 38:11 ...'This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'?Time calls your bluff! Eternity invites you without condemnation.

I am half and half here.You are partially right; the *law* needs to be internalized.I also believe that part of the law IS written on our hearts and discernable thru' the conscience.Call me tediously old-fashioned about it.Those Jewish laws of fast and circumcision, ablution and prayer ritual, are just the local code. This is what the Pharisees excelled in.Listen up Larni...the good stuff, concern for others, proper concern for one's responsibilities to themselves and to their environment, accountability for action, justice, etc...this is what I feel is not taught.It makes no difference to me that there be a 'natural' origin. (It is easier to explain in this thread some of these ideas when there are better terms and willing participants.)When I say they are not learned, and when I say conscience is not learned, it is because these above are the kind of things that really need to be 'owned'.How can you teach a person to empathize? How can you teach a person to learn from their mistakes and actually desire to improve?We do have whatever natural abilities needed to do this. But the conscience to me is that drive that you can discern in a person who 'gives a hoot' about what matters.It is something that you can pound and force and threaten and reward, but you can't teach. It must come from inside.Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

You've pretty much said what I said, except with a lot more words and we disagree on Ringo's ownership idea. Then I think you went into a sermon.

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And if you think your heart is pure... then you are a liar.

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It is a shame you don't feel a pure heart is possible. I feel otherwise and I don't feel the authors of the NT or Jesus felt a pure heart was not possible.That's why we are to shed the old self and put on the new. We stop wrong behavior and start doing right behavior. If we don't write the right behavior onto our hearts we will always struggle against the rules of right behavior. Ownership is something no one can take away from you.I don't think that makes anyone more moral, but I feel they would have a more solid foundation.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Just so you don't musunderstand, I do expect a certain behaviour out of Christians. It is true that those who claim Jesus loudly are those who should have thought in depth about His teachings and made them a part of themselves. It makes no sense to worship a God who you don't agree with, or even to follow a leader for no other reason than habit and family tradition.What I mean to say is that I don't expect better behaviour from a Christian than from a person who has reached the same conclusions of love and peace thru reason alone. Perhaps I should say that I expect consistancy amoung Christians because it is implied that they are already knowledgable and agreeable to these goals.This is not true of nominal christians.It is also IMO not the problem of leaders and clergy only.In all ages the great saints have lived side by side with the most corrupt of popes and kings.Leadership where it fails must be combatted with education. In other words even the christian parent must make available the materials for spirituality.There were times even when being Christian or Catholic was just the 'in' thing, and it is hard to know during these times when a person had really internalized their morality. Perhaps not so hard; actions speak louder than words.Also, simply having a goal of love or peace does not create only ONE method of accomplishment. There will always be thoe who feel they must live by the sword, and they are confusing to those of us who profess the same good.

We are talking about performance in this world. Atheists don't believe there is another world, so their morality can not be assessed on any other basis than this world.And Jesus agreed. Whether or not you get to heaven depends on your performance in this world:

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Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

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Edited by Ringo, : Removed superfluous sentence.

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I think I get it.We can ask what a landlord would want, an reason it out ourselves based on empathy?Or sit and do nothing while checking and rechecking the lease. Reminds me of the parable of the talents. Maybe. I contend that when a Christian surrenders, he IS owning the morality of the church. When he is rebellious, he finds that his own mirality is not the same one as the church has. Bad, or good?Or maybe you mean that this surrender is just an outward following of conduct. One can follow rules out of fear or laziness, looking for a quick fix, and with no real internalizing.I think we are going over the same ground in many different vehicles. It's all the same to me. A relationship is based on action, not on professions.

There's surrender and then there's surrender.A prisoner of war surrenders, but all the while he's trying to escape and get back home to fight again. On the other hand, when we get married we surrender a large part of our individuality in favour of the partnership.The partnership type of surrender can be internalized, but the master/slave type never is. I'm content to just run over Rob, but you keep jumping out and flagging me down.

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