Who's More Moral?

I think what I quoted was pretty specific: do these things and go to heaven. You'd have to turn the passage upside down to conclude anything different. He was telling His sheep why they were being rewarded. And He was telling His goats why their actions were inadequte. What does "believe" mean? Believe that jesus existed? Or believe what He told us to do? Neither I nor Jesus said that you are saved by your works - but the works must be there if you are saved. As Jesus described it, the works are how God can tell who is saved and who is not. Well, it's not a misrepresentation of the Bible, as I have shown, nor is it was I am saying.I am definitely not saying that "Christians are doing good works to get to heaven". I'm saying they should be, but all too often they are not. I think the good works themselves are more important than the motivation for doing them. As Jesus said, those who think they are doing His will often are not, and those who don't know they are doing His will often are.That's why it's important to understand why you are doing what you do. Why is it the "right thing"? Because "God said so" or because you think so?

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

How do you people all know my problems? I knew there was a real doctor here somewhere anyway. Ringo said call her in the morning.The zoom option doesn't work for this, but I just rebooted and it went away. Thanks.

Sure they do, because they are the "target" of our morality. When I love my neighbour as myself, it must be in a way that meets my neighbour's needs. He is the primary judge of that. I'm not sure if it's what you're asking, but I have said that morality applies to the here and now. A different morality might apply in a different time and place. I don't know any way of anticipating what morality will be required when the kingdom comes. Who is my neighbour? The Samaritan, among others. Why not?

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

anastasia read what I say carefully without jumping to conclusions.I do not believe you have to be good, bad, indifferent or moral to go to heaven.Jesus said ye must be born again. That is necessary to go to heaven.

quote:

---

Ephe 2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

---

I believe that a person who has been born from above will live an exemplary life. I believe they will have very high morals. I believe they will do many good works. If they do not, then I question if they have truly trusted in Christ and been born again.
But that is between them and God.I do not believe Christians have a monopoly on doing good things.
I know many Atheist, Muslims and Buddhist, that do many good things.
Too say my morals are better than those of any of the other posters or anyone else would be very arrogant on my part and not necessarily true.I am human and sometimes I fail. I just have to keep trying to do what is right. I do things because God did so much for me that I could not do for myself.

Granted, I don't know you too well and I could be surprised, but in general, I leap, and I have found that there are not too many other 'conclusions' amoung the born agains.Just remember that it is only ONE view, and a fairly recent one. Well, if we don't need morality, I would wonder why you are discussing it. Just out of curiousity if you will. And of course the age-old question...just how does one get born again? Of course I understand the 'I found God' phenomenon, but this getting born again stuff doesn't give me much to work with.See, us Catholics I believe would tell you, that works give grace, grace enlightens faith, and faith equals salvation.Getting save is too risky. It is faith out of nowhere. Or, yeah, God finds you. Too bad for everyone else.We must believe we can all find God, by works if needed. So in other words, without works you aren't born again no matter how much you think you are.Anyway, this is not the purpose of the thread. Where are all the atheists?

Ok, if you say target that is different from observor. Yes you do. The same one that applied to the Good Samaritan. Well, ok, I am posting for nothing. I agree with you as long as 'peers' are targets. Just didn't want to ignore your response.

Then a Christian does not have to live by a moral code but if he chooses to do so, he is more moral than an athiest? I'm just trying to understand your position.Seriously, what's the question here. Who's more moral? Is this really asking about performance?From the OP: Seems to me that the OP is asking for a comparison of the moral requirements of each group. However, most Christians would have to say that whatever God told them to do would be moral.If God told you to set fire to an orphanage and keep the children in it as it burned down, would that be a moral act (I'm assuming you would obey your God)? Would refusing to do it be an immoral act? You can't say God wouldn't tell you to do that. He has a track record that is in black and white.ABE What does THAT mean and how do I know if it happened to me?Edited by LinearAq, : Added off-topic question.

I wasn't holding my breath for any different morals to pop up here. Outside of a believer's requirements to God, I don't think there are any.What God tells us to do ,hm?To me that is as simple as following our conscience.

Then this is about performance rather than the quality of the moral rules for each group.
So what does your conscience tell you to do when you find out that your heretofore loveless brother John announces his impending marriage to George?
What would the reactions of Rev. Fred Phelps to this announcement tell us about the urgings of his conscience?
Pat Robertson?
Dr. James Dobson?If God is the author of the conscience, why are the reactions of these conscience-controlled individuals so disparate.Mostly, how does "following our conscience" relate to who is more moral? What is the yardstick by which we measure this morality?

I don't know. How can we judge quality if not by performance? If people's reactions are disparate, then the observors have to decide who is more moral. Just the fact that a person claims this or that doesn't mean they are following their conscience. That was what I asked!Actually, we don't judge. God judges. Since only the individual knows whether s/he follows her conscience, it is impossible to ask who is more moral. I asked, but only since it keeps coming up elsewhere.Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Please anastasia,Don't put words in my mouth I mess up enough by myself.I said "I" question their salvation. Others might not. I did not say we did not need morality. I said it was not in the requirements to go to heaven.Do I believe we should keep the commandments Jesus gave yes. The first commandment, He said love the Lord thy God with all your body, mind, and soul. The second was to love thy neighbor as thyself.Now I don't know about anybody else but I love myself.
I try to make sure I have food and the necessitys of life. I do not have much of the material things of this world. Because I have shared everything I have ever had in this life with those around me that did not have. These things I have done not in order to gain Gods favor but because Jesus did so much for me. I hope my previous statement you ignored in Message 94 is sufficient. Study Message 86Edited by AdminPD, : Included Msg LinkEdited by AdminPD, : Another Msg Link

I will try to be more gentle.We all question each other. None of us can judge anything with certainty about another. We can judge results, but not efforts.Still, I can ask this question because it is what you said about yourself. You, ICANT, will question another person's salvation if they do not have works. Since I am conversing with you, I don't know why I can't ask your opinion of how this is possible.A...they have works and aren't saved.B...they have none and you are not sure if they are saved.It seems that you are only asking which comes first. I think it is over-kill to say works aren't needed at all. I disagree, but again its not that important here.Or, maybe it is.You are a God-fearing man. You do not think one morality is better than another as far as atheists' and theists'. Yet at one time you say that we don't need morality to get to heaven, then say it is good to keep the commandments of God. Are they commands, or suggestions?You believe we should keep the commands, but not because God said so, only because you might want to?Oh, I know I am going to be somehow putting words into your mouth again. I don't think I have very bad forum etiquette, so if this is too much for you just let me know.

Ehpesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God.
2:9 It is not from works, so no one may boast.[/qs]This is what your Bible says.For by grace you have been saved. (Grace = God's unmerited favor.)Works has nothing to do with being saved according to your Bible. Example I have an orange tree and a grapfruit tree in my back yard. I expect to get oranges off the orange tree and grapefruit off the grapefruit tree.If you tell me you are a born again child of God and you do not have good fruit on the tree yes I would question whether you were saved.If you told me you were a good Catholic and you did not attend Mass and say your prayers and do all the other things the Catholic Church teaches I would say you were not a good Catholic.Just as if you were to tell me you have high morals and live like the devil I would not think much of your morals.Concerning the 10 Commandments they were not suggestions to the nation of Israel.
Concerning the 2 Commandments Jesus gave they are not suggestions for Christians. If you want to be Christ like you have to keep them.I have posted in other threads that the last 5 commandments given to the nation of Israel if they were our moral standards there would be no problems in the world if everybody would keep them.I don't think I can go into any greater detail without going too far OT. If you want to pursue this further e-mail me.

(I don't need to email you for now, but thanks for the offer. I am sure we will run into each other again where this is not OT.)Anyway, if these commands are truly commands and not suggestions, what happens if we fail to keep them?I don't mean entirely, perfectly at every second, but I do think you know where I am going here. There may be some mushy theological problem about works alone producing salvation, but it is clear to me, that works are exactly what God requires of us. Morality IS required. The main argument against God-based morality is, after-all, 'God told you to do it'.Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

You would lose rewards but not your eternal life. As I have tried to point out Christians should have high morals we should be able to have higher moral standards than anyone else but that is just not true. We don't because we are human and we still live in this old sinful body we have.We have been told and rightly so those of our Atheist friends who choose their own moral codes have to get it right the first time as this is all there is.In the same way God wants his children to love and Honor Him.
He wants us to choose to obey Him He wants us to be the best that we can be. So others can see Him in our life and glorify our Father which is in Heaven. God just wants us to be the best example we can be just because we love him, not because we fear Him. Is that so hard to understand? Coming from your background I suppose that is hard. I attended the 6th grade in a Catholic School.The big problem is we have so many scoundrels that claim to be Christian who have no morals whatsoever. It is no wonder we get the responses we do here from the other side of the aisle.