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Author Topic:   Rape and evolution
nator
Member (Idle past 403 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 61 of 84 (391753)
03-27-2007 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Doddy
03-27-2007 7:52 AM


Re: An important distinction.
quote:
Is there actually any significant evidence that rape is about power more than sex?

I don't know if it is more about power than sex, but is there any doubt that power has an awful lot to do with it?


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 62 of 84 (391754)
03-27-2007 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Doddy
03-27-2007 7:52 AM


Re: An important distinction.
By the Power of Thread Necromancy!

Doddy writes:

This is an interesting view Larni, and I've seen it espoused in most psychology works. However, I was recently challenged by reading The Blank Slate by Stephen Pinker, who suggests this might be a common misconception.

I have not read this book. What are its conclusions on the issue?

Edited by Larni, : Interactive menu. Alternative Ending. Gag Reel. Director's Commentary.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 4143 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 63 of 84 (391876)
03-27-2007 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Larni
03-27-2007 8:58 AM


Re: An important distinction.
Pinker, as you may know, is an evolutionary psychologist, and so he approaches the situation from that angle. Rape, in his view, is a last ditch effort for genes to pass themselves on to another generation.


"And, lo, a great beast did stand before me, having seven heads, and on each head were there seven mouths, and in each mouth were there seventy times seven teeth. For truly there were seven times seven times seven times seventy teeth, meaning there were. . . okay, carry the three, adding twenty. . . plus that extra tooth on the third mouth of the sixth head. . . Well, there were indeed a great many teeth" - The Revelation of St. Bryce the Long-Winded

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6774
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 64 of 84 (391877)
03-27-2007 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Doddy
03-27-2007 8:31 PM


Re: An important distinction.
I think the question is (or at least it should be), what is the evidence that Pinker uses to support this contention?


Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
This message is a reply to:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 4143 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 65 of 84 (391908)
03-27-2007 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Chiroptera
03-27-2007 8:41 PM


Re: An important distinction.
Well, he mentions that most victims of rape are nubile young women. From that, he draws the conclusion that rapists are selecting for the best chance of passing on their genes, but if it was about power, then old women or prepubescent girls (or boys) would be equally preferred (rather than being a minority of targets).


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 66 of 84 (391933)
03-28-2007 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Doddy
03-27-2007 8:31 PM


Re: An important distinction.
Doddy writes:

Rape, in his view, is a last ditch effort for genes to pass themselves on to another generation.

Then rape would be the province of only men who want children and can sire children no other way.

I don't buy rape as being a rationally thought out way to have off spring.

People are not psychologically driven to have off spring, they are driven to have sex.

When we learn that sex is a great sensation (in our mid teens). We are not logically and rationally planing to have off spring.

We are doing it because the act of sex is enjoyable, not the thought of having a child.


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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2328 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 67 of 84 (391934)
03-28-2007 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Larni
03-28-2007 4:42 AM


Re: An important distinction.
I don't think Pinker is arguing that these are conscious determinations on the part of the rapist but rather that the genetic/behavioural/psychological traits which give him the impetus to rape also shape his choice of victim. And if we are to allow a genetic component may be a factor then it makes sense that the victims should be those suitable for reproduction.

After all you will notice Doddy says it is the genes' last ditch effort to pass themselves on, not the rapist's last ditch effort to pass his genes on.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 68 of 84 (391935)
03-28-2007 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Wounded King
03-28-2007 4:55 AM


Re: An important distinction.
Hmm.

Not sure. That would imply genes affecting behaviour in a pretty direct way.

The rapist (in this case) could be seen to have reduced control over his actions in a similar way to a horny teenager having sex without contraceptions. His genes are driving him on.

But if that same teenage had contraceptives and used them it would be an obstacle to this hypothesis.

A study indicating whether rapist would use contraception is hardly likely so I guess I would have to modify my statement about rape being an issue of power rather than sex to a statement more like Shrafs above.

But then I can feel myself wanting to play the " there are many factors" card and this normally means I'm running out of ideas :)


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Doddy
Member (Idle past 4143 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 69 of 84 (391937)
03-28-2007 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Doddy
03-27-2007 11:45 PM


Re: An important distinction.
Does anyone have any conclusive evidence either way? Does anyone know why rape is considered an act of power, over an act of lust?


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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 70 of 84 (391940)
03-28-2007 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2006 1:54 PM


Re: Sexual behavior of felines
First of all, I didn't mention consent. Secondly, certainly is not always consensual and I don't know how you could possibly quantify feline sexual behavior to know whether or not consent is the norm.

Female cats return to the same tomcat to have a second sexual encounter; they offer themselves to the tom by posturing and meowing.

quote:
Thirdly, are you suggesting that felines don't need to procreate in order to conceive?

I phrased my answer badly. What I mean is that without having the inside of her vagina raked by the spines on the tom's penis she is incapable of conceiving; because it is this that causes her to ovulate.

quote:
hat I was alluding to is that cat sex is very aggressive, where the male bites at the neck of the female to hold her down. I also mentioned that the yowls you hear at night are not always cats fighting somewhere in the neighborhood, but rather, that's the sound of a female cat having sex. She is in pain. Its not a pleasurable experience for her.

Your woefully ignorant of cat physiology and sexuality. You're wrong. Cats have thick layers of skin on the back of their necks, it is this the tomcat grips (its the same physiological feature that allows Queens to carry their kittens without getting hurt). Your interpretation of her yowling as pain and dismay is simply wrong. Female cats experience orgasm during sexual encounters; pleasure chemicals are released in their brain.


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nator
Member (Idle past 403 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 71 of 84 (391945)
03-28-2007 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Doddy
03-28-2007 6:26 AM


Re: An important distinction.
quote:
Does anyone know why rape is considered an act of power, over an act of lust?

Well, there are rapes that happen with objects because the rapist is unable to maintain an erection.

Also, let us not forget that rape and attempted rape is an act in which one person forces themselves on another in the most intimate way. It is a supreme invasion of privacy and violation of body autonomy.

Even if the rapist doesn't succeed in penetration, the message he sends to the victim is one of domination.

"I can do this to you if I want to and there is nothing you can do to stop me."

Lust alone doesn't lead to that.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6774
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 72 of 84 (391971)
03-28-2007 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Larni
03-28-2007 5:13 AM


Re: An important distinction.
quote:
But if that same teenage had contraceptives and used them it would be an obstacle to this hypothesis.

Actually, it's not. The impulse would be to have sex, not to reproduce. In the past, the impulse to have sex would have automatically led to reproduction, so there would have been no need for an impulse to actually produce children.

The main obstacle for the hypothesis of a genetic basis for rape is the lack of any good evidence for it, besides Pinker's hasty conclusions to his made up facts.


Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
This message is a reply to:
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 605
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 73 of 84 (391994)
03-28-2007 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Doddy
03-28-2007 6:26 AM


Re: An important distinction.
I guess the most obvious reason I can think of is that many rapes are perpetrated against men, which can't be viewed as an effective means of transferring genes to the next generation, last ditch or not.

If you can discount that motive in a significant number of rape cases, then it seems to me at least that something more complex is going on - probably an interelation between social and genetic influences.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Doddy, posted 03-28-2007 6:26 AM Doddy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 4143 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 74 of 84 (392064)
03-29-2007 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Tusko
03-28-2007 1:08 PM


Re: An important distinction.
Tusko writes:


I guess the most obvious reason I can think of is that many rapes are perpetrated against men, which can't be viewed as an effective means of transferring genes to the next generation, last ditch or not.

As Chiroptera said, the impulse is only to have sex, not to reproduce. If one is in an environment with few women (such as a jail, where most male rapes occur), then it does make sense for the focus of sexual attention to turn to men, does it not?

Edited by Doddy, : clarification


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 84 (392069)
03-29-2007 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Doddy
03-29-2007 12:10 AM


Re: An important distinction.
If one is in an environment with few women (such as a jail, where most male rapes occur), then it does make sense for the focus of sexual attention to turn to men, does it not?

I would suggest that the fact that the prison environment (where superior status and dominance over inferiors is viewed as essential to survival) is more conducive to male-on-male rape than, say, an all-boy boarding school, or summer camp, or a firehouse, indicates that rape is an expression of power and dominance rather than simply a sexual outlet. I would suggest that rape is a dominating action expressed in a sexual mode. Obviously, the rapist's individual sexual preferences are going to come into play, but power and dominance are still at the root of it. A commonly-citied statistic (that I'm too tired to look up) informs us that a majority of rapists are usually in sexual relationships, already.


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Replies to this message:
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