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Author Topic:   Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt?
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 300 (391990)
03-28-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
03-27-2007 5:00 PM


Re: Doubt What?
There was one big kid, probably about twelve years old, who would never venture away from the edge.
PHAT!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 03-27-2007 5:00 PM ringo has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 300 (391998)
03-28-2007 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
03-28-2007 10:16 AM


Re: Human constructs
Why should I reserve the right to be the final arbitrator?
Who, other than you, can be the arbiter of what YOU believe?
How can faith be greater than understanding? If it is, then you do not understand your Faith.
If you do not understand your faith, how can you act based on it?
In Message 8 you said:
Phat writes:
When I first was saved in 1993, I was at a charismatic church. The Pastor used to tell us that it was demonic to question authority, since all authority originated from God.
That is a classic Christian Cult of Ignorance directive. It is not even an honest one. It is really saying that you should not question him.
Why?
If he can support what he is teaching, then it will surely stand up to examination. That must be avoided if he is to retain his position of power and influence simply because the Theology of the Christian Cult of Ignorance cannot stand up to being examined. It is based on lies and deceit.
A large percentage of today's Christian Clergy, at least in the US, are simply pandering Ignorance. Their goal is to keep their congregations as ignorant as possible, to indoctrinate them into not thinking, not challenging and not questioning authority or dogma. If they can succeed in that, then they can con the congregations into believing the most absurd of things, and protect their positions of authority, wealth and power.
It is not that Christians are Afraid To Doubt, but rather that they are taught by the Christian Ignorance Mongers that it is wrong to doubt and that they must allow their GOD given capability of critical thinking to attrophy and fade away.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 03-28-2007 10:16 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-28-2007 3:53 PM jar has replied

One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6156 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 18 of 300 (392011)
03-28-2007 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
03-28-2007 1:28 PM


Re: Human constructs
jar writes:
A large percentage of today's Christian Clergy, at least in the US, are simply pandering Ignorance. Their goal is to keep their congregations as ignorant as possible, to indoctrinate them into not thinking, not challenging and not questioning authority or dogma. If they can succeed in that, then they can con the congregations into believing the most absurd of things, and protect their positions of authority, wealth and power.
The first part certainly can be confirmed by going around to some churches and sitting in on a sermon for a few weeks. However, many of those pastors don't really have this wealth and power trip going on--at least, not consciously. Remember, if they were born into the belief, then they were brainwashed as well, and thus most of them actually believe some of the more radical doctrines.
As for the all-too-cliche evil priests(and they know who they are), their power trip is largely in their own minds; anybody who's even a little less religious than their church would give him the one finger salute if he demanded that they give him money and alterboys. I'll admit, though, that if we're talking a corrupt cabinet member of the Vatican, then your statement's rock solid.

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 Message 17 by jar, posted 03-28-2007 1:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 03-28-2007 4:07 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6156 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 19 of 300 (392015)
03-28-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Larni
03-27-2007 5:03 AM


Re: Look Befor You Leap
larni writes:
Thats what I contend faith in gods is: wishful thinking. As it's a pretty fagile stance, any doubt is a dangerous thing. Like a house of cards held up by wishful thinking it is very vulnerable to being demolished.
Contention acknowledged. With all due respect, it seems to jump to generalizations a bit. Some Christians have no problems with doubting, take this example from this thread:
RiverRat writes:
Not doubting to me, would be unbilical.
I am sure you can think of many instances in the bible, where man doubted God, and where man even gets angry at God. There are examples of people losing there faith as well.
I don't agree with everything said in the rest of the post per se, but this is one person (representing many, myself included) who feels that it is important to doubt in order to grow spiritually.
While faith is illogical by its very definition, a little dash of doubt doesn't necessarily send it crumbling to the ground.
Not trying to get at you for having a different opinion, by the way-- there certainly are some people who would avoid doubt as you described. Just bear in mind that not every religious person feels that doubt is demonic, and that the muscles of faith can often grow stronger with a little breakdown.
Edited by One_Charred_Wing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Larni, posted 03-29-2007 11:48 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 300 (392016)
03-28-2007 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by One_Charred_Wing
03-28-2007 3:53 PM


Re: Human constructs
I'll admit, though, that if we're talking a corrupt cabinet member of the Vatican, then your statement's rock solid.
No, not talking about the Vatican but rather mostly about what is often called (even though it is a misnomer) the Conservative or Biblical Christian Movements.
I'm talking about almost EVERY Televangelist, almost all Charismatics, many Evangelicals and Pentecostals. It is almost every Christian school, many home schools, all of those who would describe themselves as Young Earth Creationists or Biblical Creationists, all those who have a bumper sticker that says "I'm not better, just forgiven" or "In case of rapture this vehicle will be unoccupied".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-28-2007 3:53 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
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One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6156 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 21 of 300 (392018)
03-28-2007 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
03-28-2007 4:07 PM


Re: Human constructs
No, not talking about the Vatican but rather mostly about what is often called (even though it is a misnomer) the Conservative or Biblical Christian Movements.
I'm talking about almost EVERY Televangelist, almost all Charismatics, many Evangelicals and Pentecostals. It is almost every Christian school, many home schools, all of those who would describe themselves as Young Earth Creationists or Biblical Creationists, all those who have a bumper sticker that says "I'm not better, just forgiven" or "In case of rapture this vehicle will be unoccupied".
Okay, my admission was a little too narrow, but I'm doing this between classes when I should be re-reading my biopsyche notes before lecture
Yes, all of those certainly are not eligible(sp) for the defense I gave. I have a somewhat biased schema against Pentecostals, so I try to avoid using them as examples lest I use the term 'pendejos' as a synonym somewhere along the line. Whoops...

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 22 of 300 (392067)
03-29-2007 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Larni
03-27-2007 10:20 AM


short and simple
House of Cards.
because we fear (or know) in our hearts that if we question too much, it will all come crashing down.
i question as much as i can, but i have still found lines that i will not cross.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2007 3:12 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 03-30-2007 9:14 AM arachnophilia has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 23 of 300 (392072)
03-29-2007 3:02 AM


Isn`t it a tad sad that Christians hesitate to take the plunge, yet castigate those who have. I won`t trade my present serenity for the constant fear that I may not have done sufficient to please a non-existent god.

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 300 (392073)
03-29-2007 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Nighttrain
03-29-2007 3:02 AM


serenity
Nighttrain writes:
I won`t trade my present serenity for the constant fear that I may not have done sufficient to please a non-existent god.
Your answer leads me to ask some more questions---
1) What type of evidence would you need to accept in order to confirm within your innate awareness (and rationality)an existent God?
2) Why does the concept of God lead you to link it with fear?
___________________________________________________________________
Reminds me of the Serenity Prayer that we recite at my Christian 12 step group:
The Serenity Prayer
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with Him forever in the next.
Amen.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by nator, posted 03-29-2007 8:43 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 28 by AdminPD, posted 03-29-2007 11:01 AM Phat has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 25 of 300 (392085)
03-29-2007 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
03-27-2007 4:46 PM


Re: Doubt What?
quote:
When I first was saved in 1993, I was at a charismatic church. The Pastor used to tell us that it was demonic to question authority, since all authority originated from God.
Huh.
I wonder, then, if your feelings of being "saved" or connected with God, or whatever, weren't just a reaction to the preacher, or something.
If you don't believe he is correct about the demons and doubting and that is all in his imagination, then maybe the rest is, too?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 03-27-2007 4:46 PM Phat has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 26 of 300 (392088)
03-29-2007 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
03-29-2007 5:37 AM


Re: serenity
quote:
1) What type of evidence would you need to accept in order to confirm within your innate awareness (and rationality)an existent God?
I don't quite understand.
What do you mean by "innate awareness"?
Rationally, I'd need the same sort of evidence you would need to confirm the existence of the FSM, Zeus, or invisible pink unicorns.
quote:
2) Why does the concept of God lead you to link it with fear?
Becasue that's the sort of god that's in the bible. That's the sort of gods that people who say they know of gods show us.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 03-29-2007 5:37 AM Phat has not replied

Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 27 of 300 (392100)
03-29-2007 10:26 AM


Bob Altemeyer of the University of Manitoba has interesting things to say about some of the ideas brought up in this thread, especially regarding fundamentalists and their leaders.
The Authoritarians
This site was mentioned in the books forum too.

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 28 of 300 (392108)
03-29-2007 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
03-29-2007 5:37 AM


Don't Lead Astray
Just a note that your questions may get responses that are going to pull this thread off topic.
It is about why Christians are afraid to doubt, not anyone else or God's existence.
Please keep on track.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 03-29-2007 5:37 AM Phat has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 29 of 300 (392119)
03-29-2007 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by One_Charred_Wing
03-28-2007 4:06 PM


Re: Look Befor You Leap
While I have to agree, I would assert that to believe in a god you have to (at some point) refrain from doubting.
To continue doubting will eventually demolish ones' faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-28-2007 4:06 PM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 03-29-2007 11:55 AM Larni has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 300 (392120)
03-29-2007 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Larni
03-29-2007 11:48 AM


Re: Look Befor You Leap
To continue doubting will eventually demolish ones' faith.
Why?
Is doubting the same as questioning?
Is there any reason someone could not say "This is what I believe to be true but I realize that I might be wrong and understand that no one living is likely to ever know for sure."?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Larni, posted 03-29-2007 11:48 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Larni, posted 03-29-2007 1:59 PM jar has replied

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