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Author Topic:   governor of ohio removes abstinence-only program from budget
Asgara
Member (Idle past 593 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 31 of 62 (392096)
03-29-2007 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by nator
03-29-2007 9:20 AM


Re: Kids need REAL sex education.
*applause*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by nator, posted 03-29-2007 9:20 AM nator has not yet responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 62 (392097)
03-29-2007 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by riVeRraT
03-28-2007 11:50 PM


Yes, teenagers are horny, thanks for pointing out the completely obvious. If you care to read the rest of my posts, you'll understand the point.

If you'll recall, what set off this entire line of argument was you responding to Percy's assertion that both boys and girls are enthusastic about putting a penis in a vagina.

But as it happens, yes, you've now gone off on a tangent about the attitude one brings to sex. However, the monstrous cultural influences to which you point... such as kids kissing on the Disney Channel... are no less ridiculous, even with the goalposts moved.


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by riVeRraT, posted 03-28-2007 11:50 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 33 of 62 (392109)
03-29-2007 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by nator
03-29-2007 9:20 AM


Re: Kids need REAL sex education.
I said as much to RR in a subsequent reply that my personal opinion is that some of it goes too far and I used the Paris Hilton wannabes as an example.

The problem is that I cannot objectively point at but I feel that there IS something fundamentally different from considering that picture you presented as too extreme compared to when my mom was given similar harsh judgment for wearing bell bottoms to school in her day.

Sexualization may fit the bill as a measure but really that is the same logic that has consistently been used to denigrate the pop culture of my generation + 1. I remember in history reading about how controversial it was when the first 1 piece bathing suit came out for women so that they could ACTUALLY swim instead of play like little kids on the shallow end of the pool. We excuse that because that had to do with functionality yet today you don't call that same girl in the picture sexualized if she is in a Dora the Explorer one piece swimsuit. You WOULD however express disdain in the exact same manner that you did if you lived in the early 1900s.

I am willing to bet that some people would say that such dress teaches girls to be less ashamed of their bodies. I don't agree with that but I can imagine the argument and its basis on the exact same subjective criteria you are using to say that it is wrong.

Another issue might be to ask where is the line? Add 2-3 inches of cloth to the bottom of that shirt, stretch the seams on those pants a little bit and get rid of the word "Babe" on the shirt and I would think that would be perfectly acceptable attire for a little girl. At what point between those two scenarios did the sexualization begin? I would claim that it began the moment an ankle length dress a petticoat was no longer standard fair in the closet of a girl that age although I would hesitate greatly to call it sexualization.

In the end I don't think any of it matters if parents really love their kids and take a TRUE interest in the issues of today that get their little brains firing on all cylinders. It is the actions that our kids take in life that mean something, not what they wear, not what music they listen to. It does not matter what we think about teenage sex, Nichole Ritchie's fore into fashion, or Grand Theft Auto. Those things are not going away, especially the first one, and our kids are going to be curious about them. Many of them are perfectly willing to blatantly disobey their parents to investigate them for themselves if their parents don't fill the role of Tour Guide to the Real World.

Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by nator, posted 03-29-2007 9:20 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by riVeRraT, posted 03-29-2007 6:52 PM Jazzns has responded
 Message 37 by nator, posted 03-29-2007 9:29 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 34 of 62 (392110)
03-29-2007 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dan Carroll
03-28-2007 10:24 PM


Re: Kids need REAL sippy cups!
There are few on this forum who can make me actually laugh for real. Sometimes I wish I could look at the world through your eyes. I would probably spend the first week laughing my ass off.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-28-2007 10:24 PM Dan Carroll has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-29-2007 11:30 AM Jazzns has not yet responded

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 62 (392112)
03-29-2007 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Jazzns
03-29-2007 11:15 AM


Re: Kids need REAL sippy cups!
Aw, shucks.


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2007 11:15 AM Jazzns has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 210 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 36 of 62 (392195)
03-29-2007 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jazzns
03-29-2007 11:08 AM


Re: Kids need REAL sex education.
It is the actions that our kids take in life that mean something, not what they wear, not what music they listen to.

While I agree it is their actions that are paramount to how you get by in life, your actions can be partly dictated by your surroundings, which are influenced by the clothes you wear, and music you listen to. It seems like a paradox to me.

Similar to the theory behind why beatiful women are "high maintainence", and you are what you eat.

Many of them are perfectly willing to blatantly disobey their parents to investigate them for themselves if their parents don't fill the role of Tour Guide to the Real World.

That's fine, but at what age should we allow that to happen, and why are we marketing, and reaching these youger people so easily? can we blame it 100% on the parents? Why is it Hollywood, and game makers can get away with whatever they want? Why is it so easily attainable for youg people.

I remember when I first saw a gun shot on TV. I was about 7. There was a gun, and a shot, then you saw a dead person on the ground. There was no gore. My kids before they were 5 saw someone get their head blown off in a commercial break, on a Sunday during a basketball game. In full detail.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2007 11:08 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 460 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 37 of 62 (392218)
03-29-2007 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jazzns
03-29-2007 11:08 AM


Re: Kids need REAL sex education.
Here is where the sexualization begins, jazz.

Those Bratz outfits are adult, sexy clothes. They are very close to the same clothes that the "grown up" dolls wear.

And the people they are marketed towards are little children.

Let's imagine that our culture placed a very high priority on the appearance of boys in the same way that it does for girls. Let's pretend that boys were bombarded with messages that the main value they have in society is to be handsome and sexually alluring.

What would you think about there being Chippendale dancer outfits complete with breakaway pants g-strings, and play dollar bills to stuff in them that were marketed towards 6 year old boys?

What would you think if there were products marketed towards pre-pubescent boys that they could use to simulate underarm, chest, and facial hair?

What if there were a whole range of products geared towards making 8 year old boys look as though they are filling out the crotch of their jeans nicely. Penile enhancement underwear for little, little boys.

Seems kind of ridiculous when we think of it for little boys, doesn't it?

It is just as ridiculous for little girls, too. It's just become "normal" to sexualize younger and younger girls in our culture.

quote:
Another issue might be to ask where is the line? Add 2-3 inches of cloth to the bottom of that shirt, stretch the seams on those pants a little bit and get rid of the word "Babe" on the shirt and I would think that would be perfectly acceptable attire for a little girl.

Right. Jeans and a t-shirt that cover her and don't have a sexual term on it would be acceptable for a 6 year old. (AbE) And we'd have to ditch the strappy high heeled sandals, too.

quote:
At what point between those two scenarios did the sexualization begin? I would claim that it began the moment an ankle length dress a petticoat was no longer standard fair in the closet of a girl that age although I would hesitate greatly to call it sexualization.

The thing is, back in Victorian times, when ankles were sexual, little girl's dresses often showed half her leg. It was when she became a young woman that the skirt became longer.

quote:
I am willing to bet that some people would say that such dress teaches girls to be less ashamed of their bodies. I don't agree with that but I can imagine the argument and its basis on the exact same subjective criteria you are using to say that it is wrong.

Very few 6 year old girls are ashamed of or uncomfortable with their bodies. They have to start to go through puberty for the shame and self-consciousness to begin to manifest.

The point is, these clothes are teaching younger and younger girls that they are supposed to dress to look sexually available to boys.

They (hopefully) don't know what sex is yet. I mean, seriously.

Those are hooker clothes.

For 6 year olds.

Sold in department stores and advertized during cartoons.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2007 11:08 AM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2218 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 38 of 62 (392248)
03-29-2007 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by riVeRraT
03-29-2007 6:52 PM


Re: Kids need REAL sex education.
it seems to me that it's better for kids to know that death is messy and scary and horrible and shooting people actually hurts them. i don't like watching shoot-em-up films, but i'm glad that they portray shootings this way. it seems easier to justify a shooting if it's clean and the guy looks asleep instead of blown apart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by riVeRraT, posted 03-29-2007 6:52 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2007 9:57 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 210 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 39 of 62 (392311)
03-30-2007 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2007 11:08 PM


Re: Kids need REAL sex education.
I see your point, but it also seems like you've lost touch with your childhood, and just how scary things can be to a 5 year old.

I don't see the need to implant that knowledge on such a young person.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2007 11:08 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2007 1:53 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 45 by Cthulhu, posted 03-31-2007 12:41 AM riVeRraT has responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2218 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 40 of 62 (392353)
03-30-2007 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by riVeRraT
03-30-2007 9:57 AM


Re: Kids need REAL sex education.
so don't show shoot-em-up movies to a five year old. we're talking about parenting here. if you don't want your kids to see it, turn it off. if it's on the tv at prime time, then turn the tv off. sucks that you can't just leave your kids to their own divices, but i guess you should have thought about that before you had kids. people make movies for adults, generally. most tv shows are for adults. everyone else must be supervised. grow up and stop blaming your laziness on hollywood.

i just said i don't like watching the shit now. i clearly have not lost touch with my childhood. it scares me now. guns are scary.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2007 9:57 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2007 4:50 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 210 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 41 of 62 (392364)
03-30-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by macaroniandcheese
03-30-2007 1:53 PM


Re: Kids need REAL sex education.
so don't show shoot-em-up movies to a five year old.

Of course not, what good parent would?
Didn't you read when my kids saw that? It was a commercial break during a basketball game, on a Sunday afternoon.

if it's on the tv at prime time, then turn the tv off. sucks that you can't just leave your kids to their own divices, but i guess you should have thought about that before you had kids

I don't buy that for a second. Public TV should not be showing that stuff period. I mean whats next? Come on.
Plus, while I might be able to control my own kids, I can't control the kids of others who may be watchig that crap, and being corrupted by it, then my kids have to relate to them. What am I supposed to do, shut me and my kids off from the rest of the world?

grow up and stop blaming your laziness on hollywood.

Pretty heartless comment.

Maybe you should question the minds of those in hollywood, and their motives. I believe all their BS adds to the problems that you hate.

TV is a part of life now, and we should have a say in what goes on TV during what time. I exercise full parental control, but it seems the laws change faster than I can find out about it.

It's all about the subtlty of the gradual. Gradually things change, and we just take it. Try showing one of those movies to someone 40 years ago, and watch the shock on that persons face if they have never experienced anything like that before.

BTW, I don't blame hollywood completely. I blame us for allowing it, and buying that stuff.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2007 1:53 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by anglagard, posted 03-30-2007 5:29 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 43 by nator, posted 03-30-2007 9:18 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2200
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 42 of 62 (392368)
03-30-2007 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by riVeRraT
03-30-2007 4:50 PM


RR Appeals to Censorship
This is wrong.

RiVeRrat writes:

I don't buy that for a second. Public TV should not be showing that stuff period. I mean whats next? Come on.
Plus, while I might be able to control my own kids, I can't control the kids of others who may be watchig that crap, and being corrupted by it, then my kids have to relate to them. What am I supposed to do, shut me and my kids off from the rest of the world?

What is this? Are you actually demanding that you be allowed to censor what I see or read or that you should be in control of how I raise my daughter based upon 'protecting' your kids from reality.

Your TV has a V-chip. Learn how to use it and stay out of my personal business.

Thank You.

TV is a part of life now, and we should have a say in what goes on TV during what time. I exercise full parental control, but it seems the laws change faster than I can find out about it.

What do you mean 'we' should all have a say. I say TV is too censored.

Obviously when you say 'we' you really mean 'you' and those who agree with you should have the right to control what my family sees and hears.

I call bullshit. Who promoted you to public censor or propaganda minister?

If you can't stand stories with sex and violence then better throw that Bible away along with Shakespeare and Kurosawa.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2007 4:50 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by riVeRraT, posted 04-01-2007 12:44 AM anglagard has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 460 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 43 of 62 (392384)
03-30-2007 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by riVeRraT
03-30-2007 4:50 PM


Re: Kids need REAL sex education.
If you don't want kids watching what you consider bad stuff on TV, then don't let them watch TV that you consider bad.

Or get rid of your TV altogether if you think it is so terrible for your kids and it is too hard for you to censor what they watch.

The excuse of them not being able to "relate" to other kids who are allowed to watch the stuff you don't want your kids watching is a poor excuse.

"...becasue everybody else is doing it" is just about the oldest one in the book.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2007 4:50 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2202 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 44 of 62 (392391)
03-30-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by riVeRraT
03-29-2007 6:52 PM


Re: Kids need REAL sex education.
That's fine, but at what age should we allow that to happen, and why are we marketing, and reaching these youger people so easily? can we blame it 100% on the parents? Why is it Hollywood, and game makers can get away with whatever they want? Why is it so easily attainable for youg people.

You really think that some of these things are made with children in mind. Grand Theft Auto is a good example because it is targeted to the audience of adult video gamers that grew up at from the beginning of the video game revolution. I would never even think twice about NOT getting that game for a 10 year old yet my mom and wife who work in an elementary school talk about how some kids have told them that they got that video game for their birthday. In 3rd grade!

Is it the video game manufactures fault for making the game or the parents fault for being flipping idiots about what they buy for their kids?

I am not saying to go out and proactivly buy r-rated movies and gore filled video games for you kids, but when it reaches your home however it does, you have to deal with it. Now if my kid heard his friends talking about the game then that is a situation as a parent that I might have to address and I would take the same approach as I described with the music. IMO it is actually social networking that causes these things to spark interest in kids more than corporate advertising. All it takes is one retard parent who thinks it is a good idea to buy "Gods of War" before all the boys in the class are talking about it on the playground.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by riVeRraT, posted 03-29-2007 6:52 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

Cthulhu
Member (Idle past 4142 days)
Posts: 273
From: Roe Dyelin
Joined: 09-09-2003


Message 45 of 62 (392409)
03-31-2007 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by riVeRraT
03-30-2007 9:57 AM


Re: Kids need REAL sex education.
I see your point, but it also seems like you've lost touch with your childhood, and just how scary things can be to a 5 year old.

Well, judging from my drawings as a five year old, I'm going to go with not scary at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2007 9:57 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by riVeRraT, posted 04-01-2007 12:46 AM Cthulhu has not yet responded

  
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