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Author Topic:   Rape and evolution
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 76 of 84 (392080)
03-29-2007 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Doddy
03-29-2007 12:10 AM


Re: An important distinction.
Like Crash, I tend to believe that rape in prisons is primarily an expression of dominance than a way of finding sexual release. There are after all other ways of making yourself ejaculate- whacking off, obviously, but lets not forget consensual sex either.
If this urge to have sexual relations is the primary cause of male rape, it seems odd to me to choose what on the face of it seems the most dangerous (I'm talking purely of the rough and tumble of wrestling someone into sexual submission here) way to fire off live rounds - if there isn't a fundamental underlying social/power element.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Doddy, posted 03-29-2007 12:10 AM Doddy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Doddy, posted 03-29-2007 8:11 AM Tusko has replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 77 of 84 (392081)
03-29-2007 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by crashfrog
03-29-2007 1:23 AM


Re: An important distinction.
crashfrog writes:
I would suggest that the fact that the prison environment (where superior status and dominance over inferiors is viewed as essential to survival) is more conducive to male-on-male rape than, say, an all-boy boarding school, or summer camp, or a firehouse, indicates that rape is an expression of power and dominance rather than simply a sexual outlet.
Or perhaps it is that none of those situations have aggressive men locked up together, for very long periods, without any contact with women?
crashfrog writes:
I would suggest that rape is a dominating action expressed in a sexual mode. Obviously, the rapist's individual sexual preferences are going to come into play, but power and dominance are still at the root of it. A commonly-citied statistic (that I'm too tired to look up) informs us that a majority of rapists are usually in sexual relationships, already.
I'm sure they are. But that doesn't mean it is a fulfilling one.
Take this following example: A man and his new girlfriend are on their third date, and all is going well, and they head back to her place. One thing leads to another, and they get intimate. Partway in, the girl backs out and says they've gone too far, too soon. The guy ignores her and forces himself onto her and keeps going.
Now, you mean to tell me that at the instant when they guy begins to ignore her, his motives suddenly change from wanting sex, to wanting to exert his power over her and put her in her place?
Edited by Doddy, : spelling

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2007 1:23 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by nator, posted 03-29-2007 9:56 AM Doddy has not replied
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2007 10:25 AM Doddy has not replied
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 78 of 84 (392082)
03-29-2007 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tusko
03-29-2007 7:57 AM


Re: An important distinction.
Tusko writes:
Like Crash, I tend to believe that rape in prisons is primarily an expression of dominance than a way of finding sexual release. There are after all other ways of making yourself ejaculate- whacking off, obviously, but lets not forget consensual sex either.
Perhaps, but what about other, more common forms of rape?
Exactly how much power-play vs lust is involved? 50:50? 100:0?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tusko, posted 03-29-2007 7:57 AM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Tusko, posted 03-29-2007 8:34 AM Doddy has not replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 79 of 84 (392086)
03-29-2007 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Doddy
03-29-2007 8:11 AM


Re: An important distinction.
I would expect that the biological children of rapists raised without trauma or abuse would be less likely to rape than the biological children of non-rapists raised in an atmosphere of sexual abuse and humiliation. I wonder if this is born out in any studies.
However, if you want me to give you an exact number on how much more significant I think the social aspect is than the genetic, I can't.
I was just piping up because I thought you were saying that power wasn't a significant issue in rapes.
I've always understood the power and the humiliation of others to be a major part of the attraction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Doddy, posted 03-29-2007 8:11 AM Doddy has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 80 of 84 (392095)
03-29-2007 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Doddy
03-29-2007 8:02 AM


Re: An important distinction.
quote:
Take this following example: A man and his new girlfriend are on their third date, and all is going well, and they head back to her place. One thing leads to another, and they get intimate. Partway in, the girl backs out and says they've gone too far, too soon. The guy ignores her and forces himself onto her and keeps going.
Now, you mean to tell me that at the instant when they guy begins to ignore her, his motives suddenly change from wanting sex, to wanting to exert his power over her and put her in her place?
There was no "sudden change."
He was capable of ignoring her wish to stop and it didn't occur to him that he did not have the right to use his greater physical strength to force her to comply.
His capability to ignore her wishes, feel entitled to sex, and internal justification for using force to overpower her were there all along.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 81 of 84 (392098)
03-29-2007 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Doddy
03-29-2007 8:02 AM


Re: An important distinction.
Now, you mean to tell me that at the instant when they guy begins to ignore her, his motives suddenly change from wanting sex, to wanting to exert his power over her and put her in her place?
Yes, exactly. Where else does the sense of male sexual entitlement you refer to come from, except a desire to assert dominance over the woman?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Doddy, posted 03-29-2007 8:02 AM Doddy has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 84 (392103)
03-29-2007 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Doddy
03-29-2007 8:02 AM


Re: An important distinction.
These examples are very well and good, but there is a problem with simply "logically discussing" the problem as if we were Plato and Socrates and believed that reason alone is enough to come to definite conclusions in the real world.
There are two questions. One is whether there is a genetic basis for rape as a behavior. The actual way to investigate this is, I think, obvious.
The other question is whether a male (since we seem to be discussing males) who engages in rape has a reproductive advantage over someone who does not. That is not quite as straightforward as the previous question, but it is still amenable to scientific tests. I can give a reason why in Homo sapiens societies rape would be disadvantageous in a reproductive sense.
Finally, it is possible that the behavior of rape may (if it is biological in origin) may be the unfortunate synergetic result of other mental phenomena that have been evolutionary advantageous. It is also possible that rape (if it is biological in origin) is like the appendex: a vestigial behavior that may once have conferred a reproductive advantage to the individual but long since ceased to be evolutionarily "useful".
Like discussions about the Trinity, discussing potential evolutionary causes of human behavior is sterile without actual physical evidence.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Doddy, posted 03-29-2007 8:02 AM Doddy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2007 10:49 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 83 of 84 (392107)
03-29-2007 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Chiroptera
03-29-2007 10:31 AM


Re: An important distinction.
Like discussions about the Trinity, discussing potential evolutionary causes of human behavior is sterile without actual physical evidence.
Indeed. It's a violation of parsimony to propose a "rape gene" when it's obvious that we live in a society where:
1) Rape as a crime is relatively safe for the rapist, due to its very low prosecution rate
2) Our first impulse is to shield rapists from prosecution by victim blaming and slut-shaming
3) Men are told they're entitled to sex with a woman if they do certain things for the woman, or the woman acts or is dressed in a certain way; and that rape is a crime women need to prevent by staying home, or staying sober, or not being dressed in a certain way, because men are powerless to prevent themselves from raping.
In the light of all that, it hardly makes sense to leap to a conclusion of genetic influence when there's a whole bucketload of societal influence staring us in the face. It's believed that rape is about power simply because it's obvious that our society informs us that rape is the punishment women receive for certain behaviors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Chiroptera, posted 03-29-2007 10:31 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Chiroptera, posted 03-29-2007 4:04 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 84 (392173)
03-29-2007 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by crashfrog
03-29-2007 10:49 AM


Re: An important distinction.
quote:
...it's obvious that we live in a society where....
I always get a feeling in these types of discussions that some people don't want to admit that the social values they grew up with, have internalized, and accept without question are partly responsible for problems that they either don't want to acknowledge or want to minimize.
I first read about The Blank Slate in a review in The Skeptical Inquirer. The review was mainly a political screed about how all leftists are secret Stalinists who want to use the idea of the tabula rasa to justify their genocidal policies. No shit, it was really that bad -- I was surprised that the editor of a serious magazine like The Skeptical Inqirer allowed it to pass!
Well, looking at the Wikipedia article I find:
...that belief in a blank slate human nature encourages destructive social trends such as persecution of the successful and totalitarian social engineering.
So it seems what we really have here is political ideology, not science.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2007 10:49 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
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