Permission to come on to the land (asking for forgiveness from the Indians)

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But in all this, I can see no motive in all this if it is a lie. I personally know the person who is heading this up, and he is a great person. His visions and dreams may be a little out there for the average person, but that doesn't make him a bad guy, or a liar.

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You seriously can't imagine what the motive would be for a Christian religious leader to claim to have seen an angel? You can't imagine how having people believe that you have been visited by one of the heavenly host and given a message could possibly be of benefit to his own ego or his standing with other believers?He doesn't have to be a liar or a bad guy to be deluded or wrong, rat.

Hi, Taz. This is a subject near to my heart: my maternal grandmother's family can be traced back to pre-1776 Virginia. Her maiden name--Wood--was one of the family names associated in Virginia with "black or mulatto" descent commonly understood to be Native American.The white Virginians were so concerned about the "taint of miscegenation" that they passed a Racial Integrity Law in 1924 to force Native Americans into the "colored" category. Ironically, the Commonwealth of Virginia now uses the resultant birth certificates and racial registrations to fight the Monacan tribe's attempt to gain federal recognition--talk about salt in the wounds!Sadly enough, many freed blacks in many states did intermarry with Native Americans, and some tribes are trying to throw the freed blacks' descendants out of the tribes.As a strange family foil, my father's mother was a Sicilian immigrant, and it was a deep family secret (due to WWII hostility toward Italian immigrants) until my mother passed away just five years ago. Of course, Sicily was occupied by the Moors for hundreds of years, and many "mainland" Italians consider them to be "black"...Gee, two grandmothers in the closet, and their impurities coming together with...me! Anyway, some of the material you heard on NPR can be read here Virginia's Monacan Indian Nation Seeks Recognition.It was only after hearing this on NPR and asking some questions of family elders that I learned why Grandma Wood had that jet black hair, piercing eyes and uncommon cheekbones--and why she was so upset when I told her some of the family members in an old daguerrotype looked awfully dark: irony of ironies, she was a dyed-in-the-wool racist.When I lived in South Korea, folks from the northern provinces told me the folks from the southern provinces were untrustworthy, happy-go-lucky, not very smart but great at song and dance, lazy...and, of course, dark-skinned.From their largely fishing and farming livelihoods in a southern clime, the southern folk were, in fact, generally darker, and as in much of Asia this is/was a social caste indicator but treated more as something racial. Needless to say, the more industrial and populous northern provinces controlled national politics, and national spending of all kinds largely stayed northward.Racism is one inclination in our species that seems to always find an outlet: same play, different actors. Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.Edited by Omnivorous, : the usual suspects

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No, not the motive for claiming to have seen an angel, the motive behind all these dealings with the Indians.The only motive I can think of is to spread the word of Christ.{ABE} As far as seeing angels goes, we are taught in our church, and I already felt this way before I got there, and that is to ask God yourself if the story is true or not.
There was something that drove the Indian chief to ask for forgiveness, and it was nothing that the whites wanted or asked for.As far as raising your social status in the church by claiming you saw an angel, that could work both ways. I know, and I agree. Like I described to jar about angels a few posts earlier. Christians often get slightly deluded when it comes to certain things. But I don't think it is done intentioanlly. I take it as my personal mission to tell people if they are wrong wbout certain things. Obviously this has to be done very delicately, as I don't want to damage peoples faith.Believing in God, is not supposed to be about angels, but if angels exist, and people see them, then that is fine. It's all supposed to be about love, and from what I gather, this whole ordeal was surrounded by love.Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

I see. So believe this because I guy I know knows a guy whose cousin saw this. Gee, sounds like an urban legend in the making to me. The first few google searches I did came up with yours, I predict it will spread with slightly different twists in the next few months. Yes, as if my race is any of your businessIt is nice and pretty for those on your Christian high horse to pretend that Natives on this continent believed in something 'almost' like your beliefs. We were just waiting for you good Christians to show us the way. Great Spirit = Yahweh? Educate yourself!!! The Wikan of the Lakota (often translated the great spirit but better translated as 'mystery'), Not Jehova. The Ojibwe had no ruling god. Many Mexican tribes had versions of the Feathered Serpent as the ruling god. The latter similar to Yahweh in that he liked blood, required it for the sun to rise.

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Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

?????
I am confused, you'll have to explain that analogy in full detail, but only if relates to anything that I've posted. ????
Again, I have no clue what your talking about, and how it relates to me. Why are you getting defensive? Are you bitter?
I am not your enemy, so you should drop it. There are many Christian Native Americans. So what are you talking about? I never said or implied that. But apprently there is some sort of connection in many tribes.
Even between the Jews and the Indians.You know what, I am not even going to get into it with you. If you want to deny it all, thats fine. But if you should find out that it is real, then one day you meet up with me, and we can be friends.And if you want to teach me about your culture, I am all for it. I would love to learn. As a matter of fact, I just ran into my Native Indian friend today, and he invited me and my kids to a pow-wow in September. I would love to go and participate.People can have separate beliefs and still get along, you know.

You are referring to an event that is impossible. Therefore your source was a) lying or b) delusional to the point that their testimony cannot be taken seriously. Your wishes to the point do not make it true. It simply could not have nor did happen.My next point is that I expect to see this story changed and reprinted again and again. I never thought of you as my enemy. Hell, we shared a moment in chat, I thought of you as a friend. Am I bitter about what I see happening to native people? Yes I am. Absolutely. What happened in the past and what is still occuring should be an embaressment to anyone on this continent. I know about that more than you do. A century of schools dedicated to removing tribal beliefs and replacing them with Christian values. You cannot look at tribes and say their Christianity came from a relationship to traditional beliefs. My adopted mother was taken from the rez and 'educated' as a good Christian. She told me throughout my childhood how her father was in hell because he was a Ghost Dancer and therefore rejected Jesus. Maybe I am bitter. Dude! I know this and embrace this concept. I do not, in any way, feel like you and I do not 'get along'. We might fundementally disagree on many points, but my philosophy of embracing diversity includes those I disagree with.

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Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

I don't wish anything, I know this person personally, and we saw the pictures, and the story did happen. Just because you think it didn't happen, or your own bitterness gets in the way, has nothing to do with it.Also, it is entirely possible, that it has happened elsewhere, or that people have lied about it happening before. That has nothing to do with the truth. It is not an urban legend, unless you can prove that this particular story is.Why is it people have to mess with the truth? I can understand. And that is what this thread is all about. I wanted to know the opinion of those here about this on going situation. I personally have never felt good about what happened to the Indians, and I have been mostly ignorant about what is still happening to them.But I can't change the past, except to ask for forgiveness. And the best thing I can do is be supportive of correcting any existing situations, which I am. Yea, I guess I would be bitter also. But you shouldn't go around blaming all of Christianity. In the church I go, there are those who would not judge your father like that and say he was going to hell. (there are a few who would, but they are maybe old school) My Pastor wouldn't judge your father, or would this person who is leading this current relationship with some of Indians. Jesus came to save, not to judge. whew!