Get Over Your Fear of Atheism

For Faith and Belief.Every now and then, the religious just lay it out for all to see. From a proposed new topic: It's difficult to imagine how a scientific theory could lead someone to a loss of faith, given the backbends religion, with the infinite flexibility of a belief system based on wishful thinking, is capable of. Nonetheless I think the last sentence really lays it out - MPB1 genuinely chose to delude himself rather than accept atheism.I guess I'd like to know - why? As an atheist I can assure you - the water's fine. Giving up religion didn't turn my world upside down or leave me drifting in the wind. Drifting in the wind was what I was doing in religion, when I had "committed my life to Christ" and "turned the wheel over to God", as it were. I discovered, though, that when you "turn the wheel over to God", there's nobody in the driver's seat.Realizing that I was the one who had to steer - that I had to make a decision about what my life would be like and what I would become - gave me purpose where before I was aimless.Atheism - what's to fear, MBP1? It seems like you're spending a lot of time trying to twist the Bible into some kind of framework that superficially matches the scientific consensus; the problem is that you're trying to hit a moving target. As the consensus evolves and changes in the light of new information and evidence, you'll just wind up having to twist the Bible again.Does that strike you as an intellectually fulfilling endeavor? For that matter, go back to when you just decided what you wanted to believe - when you knowingly chose self-deception over what you suspected was true.How can that be a path to truth? How can wishful thinking lead to the truth?I'm not great at writing OP's; I'm a reactionary rather than proactionary thinker, I guess. And the way I reacted to your post was that it struck me how much your narrative sounded like a gay person struggling in the closet. "I don't want to come out!" he says to himself. "It's so much easier if people think I'm straight. Maybe I can convince myself that I'm not gay if I just try hard enough."I'm not gay myself, but I've come to understand what a truly crippling thing the closet is. It's crippling not to accept what you know to be true about yourself. It's crippling to reject a truth because you're afraid of what your spouse, or your children, or your community will think about you.When I read what you wrote there I wanted to reach out to you. It's clear that you have suspicions about atheism but also a great fear of what it means to become one of America's most hated and feared minorities. It's not easy because other people don't make it easy. But it doesn't mean that your kids won't grow up in a moral framework (and you should rethink your enthusiasm about trying to brainwash your kids in a faith you suspect isn't true.) It doesn't mean your spouse will abandon you. It doesn't mean you'll stop finding fellowship with your community and peers.I envision this as a thread where what it means to live as an atheist can be explored, and what, if anything, is lost or gained when the choice is made to abandon self-deception and embrace atheism. I feel that gaining a better understanding of what's real is worth it, and I don't recall losing anything in the choice that hadn't slipped away from me long before.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Hi crash/everyone. First of all, you helped me become evolutionist and taught me logic and educated me, you and others - and I am grateful. But you've made me into an irrefutable one so now you have to deal with your monster. ..... So one day, there was this man who had a 50cc fs1e Yamaha moped. It's top speed was 30mph. When he first got it, he was amazed by it - completely taken. It was his treasured little toy. One day he went to this biker shop where rat- bikers gather, and they all told him to do it up - get a new exhaust for it, a bigger engine. Because he wanted to confirm how great his toy was, he went along with it. In the end he had a fizzy that smoked and rattled, but the bikers thought it was great. Now one day he realized how crappy it had become - and no longer looked new and cute and nippy, etc...So - he had a decision to make. He could just get a nice big motorcycle, as it seems to be true that they're the only fast ones that can only give you that true biker-joy. OR, he can go home, and rebuild his little moped, and try to find out what was so special about it to him in the first place.So he went home, stripped it to it's original base-form, and the rat- bikers said that he wasn't a true biker anymore, and the sports-bikers insisted that only a big bike would give him joy, as that's what he was searching for.The truth is, that he loves his fs1e, and so he won't give it up. People can try and convince him it's crap, small, no power - a joke, but he enjoys it. He loves it. It's his decision really. Yes - he can see that the sports bikes are the faster - the better, trumps his own bike.When I became atheist for a small while, Crash - that happened to me. Untill, when the night came, I found that I wanted to be grateful for my food that day. I asked fellow atheists if they thought I would be silly to say a small prayer to whatever God existed, simply thanking him for what I have. They said sure - that it can't harm anyone. Then I said the next day, perhaps I want to go to those places of nature and thank whatever created it like I used to, and be silent and spiritual. they said - well, I suppose that wouldn't harm anyone. then I said - I think I want to pray for that little girl who got ill. So they said - okay, being thankful isn't problematic, being spiritual isn't such a big deal, I suppose if you pray for her, it wouldn't be so silly.There is a faith that doesn't require anything but giving, and benevolence, and charity and gratitude, that doesn't boast, and can only make the individual better. Why do we seek such a taxing faith? Maybe we simply want to be a being, a spiritual being, rather than only an animal.Has the Muslim this faith - ofcourse. What about the buddhist? Ofcourse - anyone can have this. Even an atheist can have this benevolent capacity within, because he also isn't just an animal - he is equal.Send me the paper that refuted God, and tomorrow morning I will be an atheist. Untill then, all I ask is that you accept our conviction is more powerful than creationism. Because when you lose the fear that God exists - THEN you have true strength. Then you need the jaws of life to make me atheist!

I don't know how to tell you this, Mike, but if you were still praying to God, then you weren't an atheist, were you?

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Giving up religion didn't turn my world upside down or leave me drifting in the wind.

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Heh. A bit different experience than mine. Losing my belief in Christianity was a pretty traumatic experience -- it was very unpleasant.But this brings up the point, you made, crash. It was such an unpleasant experience that I can definitely state that I did not choose to become an atheist -- I became an atheist despite what I wanted to choose.So when mpb1 says: What does it matter what she would rather do? Either someone believes or they don't. How does one choose what they are going to believe?But maybe I'm wrong -- maybe some people can choose what they believe. It seems impossible to me, but maybe this explains why some people insist that one remains an atheist by choice.

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Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

A bit condescending Crash. You made a mistake with the term "still".For a few months I didn't believe in God/s anymore because of my depression and doubts. I then started to beleive again.I can smell the no true scotsman begging to burst from your throat.

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When I read what you wrote there I wanted to reach out to you.

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I had that same reaction, crash. I really felt sad for the guy.However, I thought that it was sad that he in no way had to give up his faith in a god to reconcile it with science.That's what religious ignorance does to people who's impulse is to be intellectually honest. It makes them lie to themselves.

Hi crashfrog,I see your point - that atheists can still be normal human beings, etc.But I have been a Christian since I was 7, and I am now 33, married with three sons. I grew up in a ministry home, went to Bible college for a while (intending to go into ministry, but got sidetracked by marriage and having to make a living). Evangelism has been a passion since I was a teenager, and I've operated a number of (non-profit) Christian websites since 1999. So my roots go down pretty deep, and for me to become an atheist would probably require deprogramming.I began to doubt God's existence for a time after discovering that young-earth creationism was a lie, and then finding out that there was no easy way to reconcile science with Scripture. But I am working through it. Many if not most Christians have struggled with their faith, and it is sometimes difficult to maintain.But I am not convinced that because of the "evidence problems" that Christianity is really a lie. I still struggle with doubt, but I don't want to risk eternity, and I really don't see life as getting better for me if I reject Christianity and biblical guidelines. I have explained to my wife and our two older sons how difficult this faith struggle has been, and I'm even discussed with them how much of a struggle it is to make sense of Genesis in light of science.To help myself and others, I setup HugeDomains.com (main pages up so far), and I'm working on CreationCrisis.com (draft online @ HugeDomains.com) to alert church leaders (who don't realize there's problem, as I didn't for most of my life) to the serious issues Christians face in this area.Some Christians are walking away from the faith, and I suppose I could still make that decision myself. But if I did, it would probably be because I allowed my doubts to overwhelm my faith, and then decided I'd rather live a life outside of God's boundaries (as described in the Bible). I hope that never happens because I really don't believe I'd be better for it (in this life, or the next).-
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.

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Some Christians are walking away from the faith, and I suppose I could still make that decision myself. But if I did, it would probably be because I allowed my doubts to overwhelm my faith, and then decided I'd rather live a life outside of God's boundaries (as described in the Bible). I hope that never happens because I really don't believe I'd be a better for it (in this life, or the next).

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Why don't you think you'd be better for it?

Hi, mpb1.

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Some Christians are walking away from the faith, and I suppose I could still make that decision myself. But if I did, it would probably be because I allowed my doubts to overwhelm my faith, and then decided I'd rather live a life outside of God's boundaries (as described in the Bible).

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I'm still curious about this. Now, I don't really care what you believe, but I am curious whether you are truly capable of deciding for yourself what you believe and don't believe. I mean, as I've said above, it seems so strange that I have trouble believing such a thing is possible. Maybe some people can decide what they are going to believe, but I'm going to need someone to explicitly claim that they can before I entertain the possibility.

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Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

I don't think I'd be better for it because I believe God's guidelines for living are designed to protect us as much as to serve His cause.Some atheists may live moral lives of their own accord.I'd probably become a hedonist. Not to mention I'd probably still "believe" in my heart, even if I didn't want to.I think I'll believe in the coming Judgment of God until the day I die. I believe Hell will be punishment followed by eternal destruction if the Lake of Fire. So I don't actually fear "burning forever," but I don't want to miss out on Heaven.I've also lived believing Jesus was my closest friend all my life, and I wouldn't want to give that up either. I depend on Him, and if it turns out I'm wrong in the end, and there is no God, I won't regret my decision for a minute. (I'm sure "little Mark" will, but following him would have cost me my family anyway. So I'll still be better off, no matter what -------------------------------------------------Just refreshed and saw one more response above mine. Maybe what I said in this post will answer that question as well. That's probably the best answer I have for you.-
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.

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I don't think I'd be better for it because I believe God's guidelines for living are designed to protect us as much as to serve His cause.

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There's no reason for you to stop living by a particular set of guidelines if you believe them to be good, regardless of where you believe they came from.In addition, you might feel free to alter your guidelines in response to rational assesment instead of being locked in to a system that may not always be best for you or for others.

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Some atheists may live moral lives of their own accord.

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I take it that you don't actually know any atheists?Also, you do realize that most people who have ever lived didn't believe in your particular version of god, don't you, and that you are an atheist with respect to all the thousands of other gods that all other people have believed in just as sincerely as you believe in yours?

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I'd probably become a hedonist.

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Really? How odd. Why would you throw away all of those guidelines if you believe they are good ones?

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Not to mention I'd probably still "believe" in my heart, even if I didn't want to.

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Then you wouldn't really be an athiest.

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I think I'll believe in the coming Judgment of God until the day I die. I believe Hell will be punishment followed by eternal destruction if the Lake of Fire. So I don't actually fear "burning forever," but I don't want to miss out on Heaven.

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So, is it more moral, in your opinion, to do good because you don't want to miss out on heaven, or because you just believe that doing good is the right thing to do?

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I've also lived believing Jesus was my closest friend all my life, and I wouldn't want to give that up either. I depend on Him, and if it turns out I'm wrong in the end, and there is no God, I won't regret my decision for a minute. (I'm sure "little Mark" will, but following him would have cost me my family anyway. So I'll still be better off, no matter what

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But how can living a lie make you better off?Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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Just refreshed and saw one more response above mine. Maybe what I said in this post will answer that question as well. That's probably the best answer I have for you.

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Not to mention I'd probably still "believe" in my heart, even if I didn't want to.

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Yeah, it pretty much does. Thanks.

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Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

I freely admit I "do good" because I believe in God, and He "tells me to." If I didn't believe in God or the Bible, I would WANT to abandon the clean life I have lived up to this point - for the sake of pleasure.If the human race did "good because it is the right thing to do," then Jesus would not have come to die for the sins of mankind. The Bible says, "There is none that doeth good, no not one." "All have sinned."You know the verses...So to some extent, we all choose to do wrong. If we had righteousness in ourselves, this world would not be in the mess it is today.So your question really has no answer because it is based on a false premise.-
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.

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I envision this as a thread where what it means to live as an atheist can be explored, and what, if anything, is lost or gained when the choice is made to abandon self-deception and embrace atheism. I feel that gaining a better understanding of what's real is worth it, and I don't recall losing anything in the choice that hadn't slipped away from me long before.

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I bet you can't keep this thread on atheism.For some reason threads about atheism end up as discussions about religion.You've already got two Christians posting why they won't become atheists.I would really like to see a thread on atheism actually discuss atheism.
Look at the benefits and problems if there are any.
What does it mean to live as an atheist?Already this thread sounds like a support group for Christians in spiritual crisis.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz