Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,818 Year: 3,075/9,624 Month: 920/1,588 Week: 103/223 Day: 1/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Get Over Your Fear of Atheism
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 31 of 169 (392712)
04-01-2007 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by mpb1
04-01-2007 7:30 PM


Science and Faith in Harmony
The thing is mpb1 is that it isn't science or religion. Simply put science is the study of the natural world. It doesn't tell us anything about the supernatural or spiritual world. Personally, I find that science affirms my faith.
The Bible can be depended on as being truthful but it is made up mythologies, metaphors and actual occurrences. We have been given wisdom to sort that out but the main point is that it provides spiritual truths. Genesis tells us that God created and that we have a moral code. What difference does it make if there was a literal snake involved or not? For that matter, what difference does it make whether God used evolution or special creation?
Here is a CS Lewis quote.
Just as, on the factual side, a long preparation culminates in God’s becoming incarnate as Man, so, on the documentary side, the truth first appears in mythical form and then by a long process of condensing or focusing finally becomes incarnate as History. This involves the belief that Myth is ... a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination. The Hebrews, like other peoples, had mythology: but as they were the chosen people so their mythology was the chosen mythology - the mythology chosen by God to be the vehicle of the earliest sacred truths, the first step in that process which ends in the New Testament where truth has become completely historical.
There is no need to be afraid of Atheism, but what you really want is truth. In my view truth can be found with the scientific method and in the Christian faith. I believe they are compatible and even complimentary.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 7:30 PM mpb1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Larni, posted 04-02-2007 11:53 AM GDR has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 32 of 169 (392718)
04-01-2007 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mpb1
04-01-2007 7:42 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
So no matter how moral you or anyone else is, if the Bible is true, then all sin will be judged, and those who have not trusted in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior will receive the Judgment of God because they refused to accept the sacrifice of His Son.
Under one interpretation, sure.
But the question is - what evidence is there that suggests the Bible is true? The only reason you seem to believe it is that you were raised to, and everybody you know believes that way.
Those aren't good reasons. And if there's no good reason to accept the literal truth of the Bible on this matter, then you really don't have any reason to assume the Bible is any more true than anything else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 7:42 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 33 of 169 (392720)
04-01-2007 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by purpledawn
04-01-2007 7:10 PM


Re: Bet You Can't
purpledawn writes:
Look at the benefits and problems if there are any
Well for me, the benefits are few, but powerful (at least the first):
-A greater feeling of knowing the 'truth' than I ever had as a Christian. The heavens declare the mundaneness of the universe.
-Don't have to worry about going to Church (although I still do), praying etc, because they are all very likely futile activities
The problems are pretty big, but don't usually appear
-At odds with most of society, especially many of my friends and family. My beliefs can make people angry and sad, and I don't really like that. But I can't deny the evidence just to make someone happy - it's just too big to be a valid 'white lie'.
-Must resist endless conversion attempts by above-mentioned members of society. Not too hard or annoying usually, but takes away much of my time.
-Cannot look forward to any nice fluffy cloud-condo when I die, (but also don't need to worry about hellish hotel room).
-I consider morality to be subjective, so can only trust my own feelings as to whether I would do something or not.
So, most of the problems with being an atheist are the public perceptions, rather than my own feelings.
purpledawn writes:
What does it mean to live as an atheist?
Does it mean anything?
Really, atheism just means not living like a theist. So, whatever it means to be a theist, don't do that! I think that's why discussions on atheism turn into ones about theism.
Personally, I live as an 'zealous atheist', in that I always question a religious sentiment wherever/in whomever I find it. People look at me either as if I was questioning why blue appears blue, or like I am possessed of an evil demon (science? naturalism?). I also like to support my agnostic/atheist friends to stop them from falling into the 'light side'. After all, the 'dark side' is more powerful!

Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!
Contributors needed in the following fields: Physical Anthropology, Invertebrate Biology (esp. Lepidopterology), Biochemistry, Population Genetics, Scientific Illustration, Scientific History, Philosophy of Science, Logic and others. Researchers also wanted to source creationist literature references. Register here!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 04-01-2007 7:10 PM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by anastasia, posted 04-02-2007 6:48 PM Doddy has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 34 of 169 (392741)
04-02-2007 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mpb1
04-01-2007 5:48 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
I began to doubt God's existence for a time after discovering that young-earth creationism was a lie, and then finding out that there was no easy way to reconcile science with Scripture. But I am working through it. Many if not most Christians have struggled with their faith, and it is sometimes difficult to maintain.
But I am not convinced that because of the "evidence problems" that Christianity is really a lie. I still struggle with doubt, but I don't want to risk eternity, and I really don't see life as getting better for me if I reject Christianity and biblical guidelines. I have explained to my wife and our two older sons how difficult this faith struggle has been, and I'm even discussed with them how much of a struggle it is to make sense of Genesis in light of science.
To help myself and others, I setup OriginScience.com is for sale | HugeDomains (main pages up so far), and I'm working on CreationCrisis.com (draft online @ OriginScience.com is for sale | HugeDomains) to alert church leaders (who don't realize there's problem, as I didn't for most of my life) to the serious issues Christians face in this area.
You write those sites. You tell your story and warn them about what they're doing to destroy the faith of Christians. Most of their victims just walk away, so their congregations never hear their stories, never know what they're doing to destroy their religion, to drive people out, to keep people away.
You'll get a lot of hate email for your efforts and most of what they accuse you of will have absolutely nothing to do with what you have written. You will be villified. But since you're a Christian they will have a harder time ignoring you -- they've actually declared that, as an atheist, I have absolutely no basis for calling them on their gross hypocrisy for serving their "God of Truth" through lies and deception.
My site is at No webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/index.html. I had started rewriting it; the pre-beta version is atNo webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/new_index.html. Check out my quotes and links pages through the new_index page. Also check out a typical email exchange that I had and have HTML'ized at No webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/email.html; it was a fairly comprehensive statement of just what my position is.
To me, those "good Christians'" are zealously witnessing that Christian depends on lies and deception and that morality does not matter. I happen to believe that truth and morality are important that their witness only serves to inform me that that is one religion that I'll never want to have any involvement with.
To my mind, the problem is not about God or the Bible. It's about these people's theology, their Man-made theology. Evolution doesn't disprove God nor the Bible, but rather their Man-made theology. And it's their fallible Man-made theology that demands that their YEC interpretation be true (which it is not even remotely) or else the Bible is false and should be thrown in the trash and God does not exist. Rather than believe that and become atheists (Christian atheist, the worst kind since they've also been taught lies about atheists and atheism, plus they have a lot of anger against their former religion that had lied to them and betrayed them), shouldn't Christians instead question that Man-made theology?
It's late and I'm getting tired, so I apologize that this is unpolished and imcomplete. But to repeat my quoting of Conrad Hyers (No webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/quotes.html#HYERS):
quote:
It may be true that scientism and evolutionism (not science and evolution) are among the causes of atheism and materialism. It is at least equally true that biblical literalism, from its earlier flat-earth and geocentric forms to its recent young-earth and flood-geology forms, is one of the major causes of atheism and materialism. Many scientists and intellectuals have simply taken the literalists at their word and rejected biblical materials as being superseded or contradicted by modern science. Without having in hand a clear and persuasive alternative, they have concluded that it is nobler to be damned by the literalists than to dismiss the best testimony of research and reason. Intellectual honesty and integrity demand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 5:48 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 35 of 169 (392747)
04-02-2007 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by mpb1
04-01-2007 7:30 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Atheists do what is right because it is the better way. When making moral decisions, we consider what the impact of our actions would be on others.
I've been an atheist for over 40 years, ever since, at around the age of 12, I started reading the Bible and found it so unbelievable that, unable to satisfy the perceived Christian requirement that I believe the Bible (which I discovered I couldn't), I left. Years later as I learned more about Christian theology and history, I found that I had made the right decision, but for the wrong reasons.
I've only had sex with one woman in my life, my ex-wife with whom I had been married for 28 years. I was completely monogamous in that relationship. Before I was married, on two separate occasions two older married women to whom I was very attracted offered themselves to me and I had to turn them down because it would not have been the right thing to do to their husbands, one of whom I knew but the other I had never met.
OTOH, I have been told by several Christians that they would become total hedonists and would commit unspeakable acts if God did not exist to threaten them with punishment for such acts. I also have the testimony of a YEC activist who tells the story of having been an atheist -- in reality, he was only pretending to be one, as he had confessed to me in saying that he prayed to God every night. He explicitly states in his story that he "became an atheist" in order to become a hedonist without guilt. If Christians teach their children that they could do anything they want just by saying that they're atheists, then they should at least have the common decency to not act so surprised when their kids declare themselves to be atheists and then race off to party, party, party.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 7:30 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 36 of 169 (392763)
04-02-2007 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by mpb1
04-01-2007 7:17 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
mpb1
I have only had s-x with one woman in my life - my wife - because of what I believe. That is where the greatest temptation lies with me personally.
So are you saying here that if you became an atheist you fear you would leave your wife of many years and indulge in an orgy of other women? How is that possible if you indeed love that woman and if it is possible perhaps you are trapped in a life you live only because you are forced to which is dishonest.
Atheism may not be the thing you fear my friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 7:17 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 169 (392786)
04-02-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by mpb1
04-01-2007 7:42 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
I have no problem granting that you may very well be more of a moral person - naturally - than I am.
But by God's standard, "The wages of sin is death," any sin will keep us out of Heaven - apart from grace through faith in the Son of God.
So no matter how moral you or anyone else is, if the Bible is true, then all sin will be judged, and those who have not trusted in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior will receive the Judgment of God because they refused to accept the sacrifice of His Son.
Mark, sorry to break it to you but that is just another lie that is pushed by the same folk that try to pedal Young Earth or the Flood or Joshua Conquered Canaan myths.
See Message 1.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 7:42 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 38 of 169 (392796)
04-02-2007 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Stile
04-01-2007 8:02 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
Stile writes:
Heh. I don't think morality is at all "natural". I think it's learnt. That is, when each of us were born (neglecting any brain abnormalities) we had the exact same potential to be the most moral people in history.
Bang on with that, mate. Of course if we are told over and over that we are bad (sinners) we will believe we are bad and require some form of 'anti badness innoculation'.
*cough*religion*cough*
I stopped believing in the (frankly outlandish) tennents of a xian god when I realised there was no need for one.
Edited by Larni, : Bit of this, bit of that..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Stile, posted 04-01-2007 8:02 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 39 of 169 (392800)
04-02-2007 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
04-01-2007 1:57 PM


Crashfrog writes:
I envision this as a thread where what it means to live as an atheist can be explored, and what, if anything, is lost or gained when the choice is made to abandon self-deception and embrace atheism.
I guess it means that you don't have stablilisers on your thinking box.
That may sound a bit harsh, but imagine how you would react to someone who honesty believed in Father Christmas?
But what did it for me was that a god just seemed supurfluous as I got to understand how realilty works.
Just like when I figured out where the presents came from.
Figuring things out seems to be the key, here. Not figuring things out seems the province of believing in gods 'n stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 04-01-2007 1:57 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 40 of 169 (392804)
04-02-2007 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by GDR
04-01-2007 9:14 PM


Re: Science and Faith in Harmony
GDR writes:
It doesn't tell us anything about the supernatural or spiritual world.
What supernatural or spiritual world is that, then?
GDR writes:
In my view truth can be found with the scientific method and in the Christian faith.
Only if you add the (as yet undetectable, unidentified) supernatural or spiritual world. When you stop doing this one can let go of ones need for gods 'n stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by GDR, posted 04-01-2007 9:14 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by GDR, posted 04-02-2007 1:34 PM Larni has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 41 of 169 (392821)
04-02-2007 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Larni
04-02-2007 11:53 AM


Re: Science and Faith in Harmony
Larni writes:
What supernatural or spiritual world is that, then?
The one you live in.
Larni writes:
Only if you add the (as yet undetectable, unidentified) supernatural or spiritual world. When you stop doing this one can let go of ones need for gods 'n stuff.
The truth remains the truth whether we recognize it or not. Neither of us can prove our beliefs, and obviously people can get by believing whatever they want. However, if the Theistic position is correct and there is a creator, (IDer or whatever), then without him/her/it nothing exists. In that case you can let go all you want but you still need him/her/it.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Larni, posted 04-02-2007 11:53 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 04-02-2007 2:27 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 54 by Larni, posted 04-03-2007 3:41 AM GDR has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 169 (392829)
04-02-2007 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by GDR
04-02-2007 1:34 PM


Re: Science and Faith in Harmony
The one you live in.
Well, I live in the same world as Larni, and I don't see anything supernatural about it. In fact it's well-known that no proponent of the supernatural has ever come forward with any evidence for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by GDR, posted 04-02-2007 1:34 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 04-02-2007 2:31 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 169 (392830)
04-02-2007 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by crashfrog
04-02-2007 2:27 PM


Re: Science and Faith in Harmony
Well, I live in the same world as Larni, and I don't see anything supernatural about it. In fact it's well-known that no proponent of the supernatural has ever come forward with any evidence for it.
Well of course not. If it were subject to the same evidences as the natural world it would not be super natural.
But on the subject of the thread, I see no reason for anyone to fear Atheism. It is certainly not a threat to anyone.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 04-02-2007 2:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 04-02-2007 2:41 PM jar has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 169 (392831)
04-02-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
04-02-2007 2:31 PM


Re: Science and Faith in Harmony
If it were subject to the same evidences as the natural world it would not be super natural.
Then I don't understand what "supernatural" means, I guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 04-02-2007 2:31 PM jar has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 45 of 169 (392864)
04-02-2007 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Doddy
04-01-2007 9:53 PM


Re: Bet You Can't
You scare me Doddy!
Doddy writes:
Does it mean anything?
Really, atheism just means not living like a theist. So, whatever it means to be a theist, don't do that! I think that's why discussions on atheism turn into ones about theism.
Personally, I live as an 'zealous atheist', in that I always question a religious sentiment wherever/in whomever I find it. People look at me either as if I was questioning why blue appears blue, or like I am possessed of an evil demon (science? naturalism?). I also like to support my agnostic/atheist friends to stop them from falling into the 'light side'. After all, the 'dark side' is more powerful!
It sounds like a game to me, 'opposites day' or something. I am sure you don't intend it that way. I just wonder if a Christian said that it 'doesn't mean anything' to be Christian, and then said they militantly question atheists just because...well, would it go over so well with anyone involved? Especially the people being questioned? Why would I want a person who has found no meaning other than being not like someone else, to question me about my meanings?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Doddy, posted 04-01-2007 9:53 PM Doddy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Doddy, posted 04-03-2007 12:17 AM anastasia has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024