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Author Topic:   A personal morality
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 16 of 196 (392953)
04-02-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Neutralmind
04-02-2007 8:57 PM


I have a fear, no... I know that if I KNEW for sure, that there was absolutely no doubt that relative morality is correct I'd become one of the most immoral guys in this planet.
I doubt it. You clearly know it to be true and still, you are not out there raping and killing. Instead, you are here enjoying yourself talking about it with us over the internet.
I know this isn't the case for most. For many I know this wouldn't change much in their life but in mine... I KNOW I would become like that and I have no idea why I wouldn't want to be like that, now that I know (not KNOW) that relative morality is in fact correct.
I don`t think you would. the reason you wouldn`t want to become a imoral person is because that`s not who you are. Your morality comes from within you and a simple change in your understanding about how the world operates wouldn`t make a dent. denying your own nature would be unbearable.

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 17 of 196 (392954)
04-02-2007 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by anastasia
04-02-2007 11:10 PM


Re: you are correct...
your morality is objective because it judges other people as 'evil' even if they don't think they are.
that's not what "objective" means.
objective implies lack of bias--there is clearly bias in my morality statements. my morality is based off of me and how and/or what I define "right" and "wrong". you will probably have different definitions or considerations. my morality is rooted in my life experience, to a degree.
an objective morality would be free of bias, would be free of life experiences, there would be a single definition of "right" and "wrong" as well as what is "right" and "wrong".
Not because he really is
actually, he really is. he really is wrong (imo). and at that point, that's all that's of concern to me.(well, aside from surviving the ordeal).
i think it's right to infringe on other people when they are directly interfering with me in a way I don't approve of.

"Have the Courage to Know!" --Immanuel Kant
" One useless man is a disgrace. Two are called a law firm. Three or more are called a congress" --paraphrased, John Adams
Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 18 of 196 (392955)
04-02-2007 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rob
04-02-2007 11:18 PM


Re: you are correct...
I would change my behavior because there would be no ultimate consequence for my actions. There would be nothing to hold me accountable to.
bullshit. you can't hold yourself accountable? or do you not trust yourself? when I do something I know is wrong, I don't shrug it off. I feel bad over it. I hold myself accountable for my actions. can't you?
[qs]Furthermore, if morality is relative, then so is justice and mercy. The whole idea that life is meaningful, would very quickly devolve into meaningless chaos.[qs] non sequiter. why is life meaningless if justice and mercy are relative? just stating doesn't make it so, and I'd argue that one does not follow the other. you give life meaning. if you can only find meaning by having god, fine. but that's your choice.
And if life is not meaningful and chaos is the only reality
what does meaning and order have to do with each other? order is the opposite of chaos, not meaningfulness. I will grant you, though, that some people find order in their lives by having meaning, but that does not mean that meaningfulness = order.

"Have the Courage to Know!" --Immanuel Kant
" One useless man is a disgrace. Two are called a law firm. Three or more are called a congress" --paraphrased, John Adams
Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Rob, posted 04-02-2007 11:18 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by fallacycop, posted 04-03-2007 12:04 AM kuresu has not replied
 Message 22 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:06 AM kuresu has replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 19 of 196 (392956)
04-02-2007 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Rob
04-02-2007 10:00 PM


For example, a good friend once reminded me while we were discussing a particular moral issue, that I cannot impose my morality onto others.
After several days it hit me... So I called him and I asked him, 'Why'? 'Would it be wrong to do so'?
If morality is not a real and objective thing, then how can we protest anything?
Someone might argue that it`s not a question of right and wrong. It really is a question of true and untrue. If there happens to be to real god (a logical possibility) then there is no absolute morality. It would be (is) up to us as human beings do find for ourselves what we consider to be right or wrong (not a simple matter, but hey! who said it had to be simple?)
I think it is insidious and diabolically clever, for a philosophy like moral relativism to claim neutrality, when there is no possible way to apply it without labling it's alternative (objective morality), as 'wrong'.
Not wrong. just incorrect. That`s a huge difference. wrong implies a moral reason for us to drop the absolute morality, as oposed to as simply not being a good mirror for reality. You seem to have this absolute way to look at things rooted so deeply in your being that you find it hard not to think in terms of rights and wrongs.
Will liars suddenly start becoming honest with me out of respect for my belief in truth? I don't think so...
What`s that`s got to do with anything? really?
So in my mind, it is nonsense to even suggest such things as relative morality, because for it to work, we must assume another morality to be at work to support it, and that is one of respecting others, as you wish to be respected.
May be in your mind. But out here in the real world your pseudoparadox doesn`t seem to hold water.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Rob, posted 04-02-2007 10:00 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:00 AM fallacycop has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 20 of 196 (392957)
04-03-2007 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by fallacycop
04-02-2007 11:54 PM


Fallacycop:
Not wrong. just incorrect.
Tell a mother who's child was murdered by a drive by, that it was just a mistake.
Was Nazi Germany a mistake?
Is child Molestation a simple error?
etc...
Checkmate!
I have to wonder what sin you like so much, that it is worth justifying things that are evil as mistakes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by fallacycop, posted 04-02-2007 11:54 PM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by fallacycop, posted 04-03-2007 12:17 AM Rob has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 21 of 196 (392958)
04-03-2007 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by kuresu
04-02-2007 11:52 PM


Re: you are correct...
Furthermore, if morality is relative, then so is justice and mercy. The whole idea that life is meaningful, would very quickly devolve into meaningless chaos.
non sequiter.
I agree. But even if it were not a non sequitur, it would still be appealing to consequences.
Rob seems to think that if something leads to internal chaos (inside his mind), then it cannot possibly be true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by kuresu, posted 04-02-2007 11:52 PM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:08 AM fallacycop has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 22 of 196 (392959)
04-03-2007 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by kuresu
04-02-2007 11:52 PM


Re: you are correct...
When I do something I know is wrong, I don't shrug it off. I feel bad over it. I hold myself accountable for my actions.
Why would you violate your own morality?
"All men alike stand condemned, not by alien codes of ethics, but by their own, and all men therefore are conscious of guilt."
--The Problem of Pain-- Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by kuresu, posted 04-02-2007 11:52 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by kuresu, posted 04-03-2007 12:19 AM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 23 of 196 (392960)
04-03-2007 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by fallacycop
04-03-2007 12:04 AM


Re: you are correct...
Rob seems to think that if something leads to internal chaos (inside his mind), then it cannot possibly be true.
Do you think chaos (incoherence) can be true?
How would you know?
Logic we can know, illogic we cannot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by fallacycop, posted 04-03-2007 12:04 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by fallacycop, posted 04-03-2007 12:24 AM Rob has replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 24 of 196 (392962)
04-03-2007 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Rob
04-03-2007 12:00 AM


Tell a mother who's child was murdered by a drive by, that it was just a mistake.
Was Nazi Germany a mistake?
Is child Molestation a simple error?
etc...
I said it once, and I`ll say it again. what`s that got to do with anything???
I didn`t say those things are mistakes. I said it is a mistake to think that they are wrong because of some absolute morality. Correct would be to say that those things are wrong because we as human beings (with our relative morality) find those things abhorent (probabily misspeled).
Checkmate!
Don`t you wish it would be so easy?!!
I have to wonder what sin you like so much, that it is worth justifying things that are evil as mistakes?
I`m not trying to justify anything. I`m just concerned with truth, and whether there really is an absolute morality handed down from god to man. I`m convinced that there isn`t, and I`m fine with that. I`m not any less moral for it if you want to know.
Edited by fallacycop, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:00 AM Rob has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 25 of 196 (392963)
04-03-2007 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Rob
04-03-2007 12:06 AM


Re: you are correct...
as you love to say, we're only human. i've never claimed to be superman over here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:06 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:24 AM kuresu has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 26 of 196 (392965)
04-03-2007 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by kuresu
04-03-2007 12:19 AM


Re: you are correct...
as you love to say, we're only human. i've never claimed to be superman over here.
Yes... so you violate your own morality... because you are not perfect.
The standard you are judged by is perfect?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by kuresu, posted 04-03-2007 12:19 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by kuresu, posted 04-03-2007 1:01 AM Rob has replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 27 of 196 (392966)
04-03-2007 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Rob
04-03-2007 12:08 AM


Re: you are correct...
Do you think chaos (incoherence) can be true?
The only chaotic thing aroud here, as far as I can see, is the way you think about things. You`ve been making fallacious arguments against relative morality. All I`ve done was to point them out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:08 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:40 AM fallacycop has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 28 of 196 (392971)
04-03-2007 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by fallacycop
04-03-2007 12:24 AM


Re: you are correct...
Not so fast Super Fuzz...
You said:Rob seems to think that if something leads to internal chaos (inside his mind), then it cannot possibly be true.
I then asked:
Do you think chaos (incoherence) can be true?
And you replied:
The only chaotic thing aroud here, as far as I can see, is the way you think about things. You`ve been making fallacious arguments against relative morality. All I`ve done was to point them out.
Based upon your own assertion, if my thoughts are chaotic, then why does that prevent them from being true?
Calling something fallacious means what?
What is the fallacy my dear officer?
What is the difference between a fallacious statement and a non-fallacious one?
Let me help you... A fallacious statement is an incoherent one... It is not sensible.
If you say that chaotic ideas can be true, then I could say, 'choick buftowack grathernum lifzbufqueb.'
The statement is false.The only way you can know it is true, requires it be explained logically, so that you will see. And if it can be seen, then
it can't be incoherent or chaotic, because by definition it is commprehensible. Incoherence and chaos are not comprehensible.
Otherwise, I could say that 'all statements are incoherent'. There is no way to understand that or see it, because it is nonsense. It is an illusion to think otherwise. The statement does not exist, because it is not a statement.
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by fallacycop, posted 04-03-2007 12:24 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by fallacycop, posted 04-03-2007 12:48 AM Rob has replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 29 of 196 (392975)
04-03-2007 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Rob
04-03-2007 12:40 AM


Re: you are correct...
If you say that chaotic ideas can be true
I don`t think I ever said that. What I said was that the only chaos around here is inside your mind. meaning it is a figment of your imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:40 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:58 AM fallacycop has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 30 of 196 (392981)
04-03-2007 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by fallacycop
04-03-2007 12:48 AM


Re: you are correct...
Ok fine... you din't actually say that!
But the point is that your rebuke of me was not valid, because it presupposes, by implication, that chaos can be true.
Of course I don't think chaotic ideas can be true. Only orderly ideas can be true.
And some orderly ideas appear chaotic from a distance, but things orderly are orderly to the bone.
They are perfect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by fallacycop, posted 04-03-2007 12:48 AM fallacycop has not replied

  
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