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Author Topic:   Get Over Your Fear of Atheism
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 46 of 169 (392883)
04-02-2007 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by mpb1
04-01-2007 8:08 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
I really don't understand how your response addresses my post.
My point is that most non-believers seem to have no more trouble following commonly-accepted moral codes and societal norms than believers.
A non-believer's reasons for not cheating on someone they promised to remain exclusive to would be different from yours, such as but not limited to:
1) they don't think it is right to be dishonest.
2) they don't want to hurt the person they made the promise to.
3) they don't want to experience the social stigma of being known to be a liar and a jerk.
Why wouldn't any of these reasons be adequate to keep you from behaving in a way you believe to be "not good"?
It seems to me that if the most important reason you refrain from cheating on your spouse is because you are concerned with your own eternal salvation rather than the pain you cause others, you are ultimately doing good for very selfish reasons.

'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."- Richard Feynman
"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders
"I haven't studied the theory of evolution much because I disagree 100%
with its claims."--ICDESIGN

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 8:08 PM mpb1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by mpb1, posted 04-02-2007 8:36 PM nator has replied

  
mpb1
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 66
From: Texas
Joined: 03-24-2007


Message 47 of 169 (392899)
04-02-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by nator
04-02-2007 7:52 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Nator,
I think your point is a good one. I have to agree.
As Christians, I think we sort of have it in our heads that the FIRST reason we do right is to obey God's commands. All other reasons seem to come after that... So if the question is, "Would I cheat on my wife if I were not a Christian?" then I would have to say, "I hope not" ...for all the good reasons you mentioned.
But I think I was referring back to the moments when I began to doubt Christianity, and for several weeks I wondered if I could end up an atheist. During those times, I could sense a part of me almost wishing I could turn my back on Christianity, so I could do whatever the hell I wanted.
Atheists have no "moral fence" around them, except consequences. Christians usually think of disobedience to God even before "consequences" to themselves or others.
That's why I admitted near the beginning of this thread that I if ever walked away from the faith, it would probably be at least partially motivated by a desire to do whatever the hell I wanted - because that was the temptation I felt when I considered the possibility.
In my opinion, most people are about the same on the goodness scale - probably 80% are of "average goodness," maybe 10% are naturally near-perfect, and maybe another 10% are downright evil. I'd include myself among the 80% who are average (according to my unscientific estimate).
The nearly-perfect people are probably the most self-righteous and don't really think they need a Savior. Most of the downright evil people believe they are going to Hell - at least the ones I've talked with in my evangelistic efforts.
And the rest of us either follow the faith of our parents, try finding another way to God, or reject faith altogether. In my experience, the higher a person's intellect (or at least the more intellectual a person perceives themself to be), the more likely they are to choose atheism.
Jesus himself said he has chosen the foolish and weak things of this world to confound the wise. I believe many atheists simply conclude there is no need for a God in this universe, there isn't enough compelling evidence for one, and they certainly don't want to have to make themselves accountable to one.
I went on a bit of rabbit trail here, but I think my original point was that trying to group Christians or atheists as being morally better or worse than anyone else is probably a waste of time - because statistics show there is essentially no difference between us - behaviorally. We're all sinners. Christians just believe they're forgiven.
And some Christians sometimes wish there was no "forced" moral code for us to abide by, especially when temptations call. But we also know in our hearts that God's commands are as much for our own protection as anything else.
I don't fear Hell if do wrong, because I believe Christ died for my sins. But I believe God will chastise me (as my Heavenly Father) if I commit grave sins against Him, in addition to the other natural consequences that would follow.
Sometimes the natural consequences ARE the extent of His discipline, but we also feel a sense of pain in betraying the One we believe loved us so much He sent His only Son to die for us. So we don't want to betray Him, or feel the guilt of our own wrongdoing - which is definitely multiplied in those who seek to obey God.
-
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 04-02-2007 7:52 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 55 by nator, posted 04-03-2007 8:04 AM mpb1 has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 48 of 169 (392918)
04-02-2007 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by mpb1
04-02-2007 8:36 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
mpb1 writes:
But I think I was referring back to the moments when I began to doubt Christianity, and for several weeks I wondered if I could end up an atheist. During those times, I could sense a part of me almost wishing I could turn my back on Christianity, so I could do whatever the hell I wanted.
It seems that way, but it isn't. You could do what you wanted till a point. Things like cheating are ridiculous to mention. The 'guilt' I would feel towards God is not even remotely close to the guilt I would feel for huritng my husband. You know this, or you do not love this person.
In other areas there may be some leniancy. If I stopped being a believer, and my husband were ever to divorce me, I could comfortably pursue another relationship. If you are not actually thinking about what you are saying, and imagining a prefect world of leisure, you will find that this is unrealistic in almost every circumstance.
Atheists have no "moral fence" around them, except consequences. Christians usually think of disobedience to God even before "consequences" to themselves or others.
I sort of agree...well...consequence is one thing. If we do somethings up to and until a negative consequence, we have learned our lesson. If we decide against something because of a foreseen consequence, we have put up a moral fence. The forseeable consequences always limit us. None of the commandments truly involve consequence. If you are forced to think of 'thou shalt not kill' while your children are in danger, what is on your mind? God, or others? If you are serving others, you are serving God. If you believe that atheists are waiting around for a bad consequence before they react, this may be true, but it is no more true for them than it is for me. We can all build 'fences' based on what we perceive as a result. You perceive hell. I am sure you see by now that there are consequences other than hell which would stop you from avoiding morality.
Well, perhaps you might ask why, in the absence of consequences, such as lying and not being caught,( which may have a good result for you) would an atheist choose to tell the truth just because it is 'right'? You may ask what is 'right' about it, if it is doing some good for you. This you must ask them.
In my opinion, most people are about the same on the goodness scale - probably 80% are of "average goodness," maybe 10% are naturally near-perfect, and maybe another 10% are downright evil. I'd include myself among the 80% who are average (according to my unscientific estimate).
'Naturally near-perfect'? Who is so naturally near perfect?
The nearly-perfect people are probably the most self-righteous and don't really think they need a Savior. Most of the downright evil people believe they are going to Hell - at least the ones I've talked with in my evangelistic efforts.
This is so backwards I can't stand it. Those who are so near perfect are supposed to be the ones who THINK they are going to hell. Those who don't are supposed to be the self-righteous.
We're all sinners. Christians just believe they're forgiven.
What? They are pre-forgiven? Christians believe they have to repent. You can't walk around saying you are forgiven and then saying you are afraid to sin.
I don't fear Hell if do wrong, because I believe Christ died for my sins. But I believe God will chastise me (as my Heavenly Father) if I commit grave sins against Him, in addition to the other natural consequences that would follow.
So you are saved no matter what? This is so sad. If this is true, then by all means live it up and keep believin'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by mpb1, posted 04-02-2007 8:36 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 49 of 169 (392961)
04-03-2007 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by anastasia
04-02-2007 6:48 PM


Re: Bet You Can't
anastasia writes:
I just wonder if a Christian said that it 'doesn't mean anything' to be Christian, and then said they militantly question atheists just because...well, would it go over so well with anyone involved? Especially the people being questioned? Why would I want a person who has found no meaning other than being not like someone else, to question me about my meanings?
I never said I had no meaning, only I don't think it comes from my metaphysical beliefs (and the lack thereof). My reason for question people comes from my beliefs about the natural world, namely that one who thinks critically is better off in the long run.
Besides, I don't see why my lack of metaphysical meaning has any bearing on my discussions with others who do have meaning in their life. I don't have a car, or a license to drive one, but that doesn't mean I can't talk about them or ask people about their car, or even criticize their choice of automobile.

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This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 169 (392977)
04-03-2007 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
04-01-2007 1:57 PM


Several Key Points
  • Crashfrog writes:
    I discovered, though, that when you "turn the wheel over to God", there's nobody in the driver's seat.
    You only discovered that there was nobody in the drivers seat in the car you were in. You are suggesting that your belief is a fact for everyone who chooses to accept it. You are militant about your atheism when you attempt to convert others.
  • Crashfrog writes:
    I had to make a decision about what my life would be like and what I would become
    And thats no different than me. You cant sit there and whine about the poor atheist persecution when you tell me that my beliefs are ridiculous assertions. Let every man decide for themselves. Don't attempt to frame a reality that you know little about.(By that I mean the unknown as well as the known aspects of the universe.
    Crashfrog writes:
    I envision this as a thread where what it means to live as an atheist can be explored, and what, if anything, is lost or gained when the choice is made to abandon self-deception and embrace atheism.
    Just make it clear that atheism is not for everyone, and each has to decide what is Faith and what is self deception. One mans self deception is not universally true for everyone.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 04-01-2007 1:57 PM crashfrog has replied

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    crashfrog
    Member (Idle past 1466 days)
    Posts: 19762
    From: Silver Spring, MD
    Joined: 03-20-2003


    Message 51 of 169 (392982)
    04-03-2007 12:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
    04-03-2007 12:52 AM


    Re: Several Key Points
    You are militant about your atheism when you attempt to convert others.
    M already converted himself. He's just stuck in a bind between what he knows is probably true and what he's willing to admit to himself.
    When a gay man tells another gay man not to live in the closet, he's not recruiting homosexuals. He's trying to help someone who's setting out on the same path he once walked. So too in this instance.
    You cant sit there and whine about the poor atheist persecution when you tell me that my beliefs are ridiculous assertions.
    Actually I can, as it turns out. Our beliefs are qualitatively different. And you can't exactly say that America is a hostile environment for Christians, you know.
    Just make it clear that atheism is not for everyone
    I never said that it was. It's certainly not for people who prefer comforting fictions to harsh realities. M doesn't strike me as that kind of guy. He wants to be, maybe, but he's not.
    One mans self deception is not universally true for everyone.
    This doesn't make any sense. To claim that God exists is to make an objective, verifiable claim. It's incoherent to suggest that God is nonexistent for me but exists for you. One or the other of us must be mistaken; there's no way we can both be right. We live in the same universe, after all. Either God exists or he doesn't, for both of us.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
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    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 5930
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 5.8


    Message 52 of 169 (392990)
    04-03-2007 2:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by mpb1
    04-02-2007 8:36 PM


    Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
    As Christians, I think we sort of have it in our heads that the FIRST reason we do right is to obey God's commands. All other reasons seem to come after that... So if the question is, "Would I cheat on my wife if I were not a Christian?" then I would have to say, "I hope not" ...for all the good reasons you mentioned.
    But I think I was referring back to the moments when I began to doubt Christianity, and for several weeks I wondered if I could end up an atheist. During those times, I could sense a part of me almost wishing I could turn my back on Christianity, so I could do whatever the hell I wanted.
    Atheists have no "moral fence" around them, except consequences. Christians usually think of disobedience to God even before "consequences" to themselves or others.
    That's why I admitted near the beginning of this thread that I if ever walked away from the faith, it would probably be at least partially motivated by a desire to do whatever the hell I wanted - because that was the temptation I felt when I considered the possibility.
    OK, consider these two cases: both of two individuals, both Christians, discover that something that they had deeply believed is wrong and as a result they lose their faith in God. The first Christian believes (as you have expressed) that the only reason to be moral is to obey God's commandments, so if God doesn't exist that means that he can do "whatever the hell [he wants]". The second Christian realizes that all his actions have consequences and that there is a deeper reason for morality, that it is what enables us to live together and to work together and to keep from us from tearing each other apart. The first Christian sheds his morality as quickly and as eagerly as possible and launches himself into a life of self-destructive hedonism, whereas the second Christian retains his morality because he realizes that its importance is not dependent on the existence of God.
    "Atheists have no "moral fence" around them, except consequences."? What more does anyone need? The consequences of our actions, the simple fact that all our actions affect all of us either directly or indirectly, is the very reason why morality is so vitally important! And that vital importance does not in the least depend on whether any particular supernatural beings exist or not. And it is inconsciable to insist that morality is only meaningful if a particular theology about one particular god is absolutely true. And it just boggles our minds that anyone could seriously hold that belief, let alone realize that large numbers of people absolutely insist upon that belief.
    Consider what that belief says about your god. That belief says that those are arbitrary rules that are meaningless except that God said that you are to obey them. Why would a loving god burden you with completely arbitrary rules that are meaningless and are a burden to adhere to? What kind of tin-plated megalomaniacal martinette would do such a thing? Who would ever want to have anything to do with such a despicable god? That is what that belief makes your god to be.
    Consider this alternative: morality is vitally important, so God lays down those rules so that you will do right. Not because He's on some power trip, but rather because it is so important for your own benefit and well-being, for everybody's benefit and well-being, that all of you follow those rules. Now, how is this view inconsistent with a loving Christian God?
    The first Christian had believed in the tin-plated megalomaniacal martinette of a god, and so was misled to forsaking morality in favor of self-destructive hedonism. The second Christian believed in a loving caring god who had given us morality for our own sakes, and so he retained his morality.
    I became an atheist around the age of 12 when I started reading the Bible and quickly realized that I could not believe it. Early in college (circa 1970), the "Jesus Freak" movement appeared and close friends converted, so I received my fundamentalist Christian training as a "fellow traveller" -- I was skeptical at first and I became increasingly skeptical as I learned more and more about what they believed. Part of that fundamentalist training was the doctrine that you had expressed, that without God you are free to do whatever you damned-well want to do. I toyed with the idea for short while, but very quickly saw it for what it is, absolutely ridiculous.
    BTW, it was the fundamentalist sister of my close friend who was the first woman to offer herself to me -- I refused because I knew her husband and I could not do such a thing to him (even though I didn't much like the guy). I told her that I couldn't because it would be wrong, and she challenged that, saying that as an atheist I couldn't say that, but I had put myself in his place and I knew that I would not want it to happen to me, so I could not do it to him.
    Rather than trivialize morality and God, wouldn't it be better to teach why morality is so important -- precisely because of the consequences -- and to thank God for giving it to you? Receive it as that precious gift that it is, rather than view it as an annoying burden?

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    RickJB
    Member (Idle past 4990 days)
    Posts: 917
    From: London, UK
    Joined: 04-14-2006


    Message 53 of 169 (392998)
    04-03-2007 3:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by mpb1
    04-02-2007 8:36 PM


    Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
    mob writes:
    Atheists have no "moral fence" around them, except consequences.
    So you telling us that Christians don't manipulate the "moral fence" of their faith to suit their own desires? Christians themselves often cannot agree on what kind of "moral fence" their faith implies!
    In light of this it seems to me that social consequences provide a much firmer moral base than the tenets of any given faith.....
    Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Larni
    Member (Idle past 163 days)
    Posts: 4000
    From: Liverpool
    Joined: 09-16-2005


    Message 54 of 169 (392999)
    04-03-2007 3:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 41 by GDR
    04-02-2007 1:34 PM


    Re: Science and Faith in Harmony
    GDR writes:
    The one you live in.
    What Crash said.
    GDR writes:
    Neither of us can prove our beliefs, and obviously people can get by believing whatever they want.
    So how is xianity different from any other religion?
    You are quite happy to be an atheist about the myriad other religions out there.
    Can you prove I can't fly when no one is around to see? No of course you can't. The logic you use here is flawed.

    This message is a reply to:
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    nator
    Member (Idle past 2169 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 55 of 169 (393007)
    04-03-2007 8:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by mpb1
    04-02-2007 8:36 PM


    Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
    quote:
    During those times, I could sense a part of me almost wishing I could turn my back on Christianity, so I could do whatever the hell I wanted.
    What makes you think that atheists "do whatever the hell they want"?
    Unless they are sociopaths, ALL people, believers included, live more or less by a combination societal rules and a personal moral code.
    quote:
    Atheists have no "moral fence" around them, except consequences.
    The same is true for you, isn't it?
    You fear eternal damnation for yourself, which is a consequence of "jumping the fence".
    On the other hand, Atheist moral codes tend to be much more concerned with how their actions affect others around us.
    They are both consequences.
    quote:
    That's why I admitted near the beginning of this thread that I if ever walked away from the faith, it would probably be at least partially motivated by a desire to do whatever the hell I wanted - because that was the temptation I felt when I considered the possibility.
    Maybe that says more about your current life and your happiness with it than about Atheism.
    As I explained above, not believing in the supernatural doesn't mean you can "do whatever you want".
    quote:
    I believe many atheists simply conclude there is no need for a God in this universe, there isn't enough compelling evidence for one, and they certainly don't want to have to make themselves accountable to one.
    Correct on points a and b, wrong on point c.
    Tell me, do you not want to have to make yourself accountable to Vishnu? Isis? Athena?
    Do you resentfully and petulantly turn your back on those gods the way you envision Atheists doing so to your god? Or, do you not feel anything at all regarding those gods?
    When you realize that atheists feel about your god the way you feel about all other gods (that is, you feel nothing), you will understand atheism a little better.
    quote:
    I went on a bit of rabbit trail here, but I think my original point was that trying to group Christians or atheists as being morally better or worse than anyone else is probably a waste of time - because statistics show there is essentially no difference between us - behaviorally.
    Actually, statistically Atheists behave better than Christians.
    They get divorced at the lowest rate compared to the strictest sects of Chritianity, and they are represented in our prisions at a rate lower than the percentage of Atheists in the general population.
    Edited by nator, : No reason given.
    Edited by nator, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
     Message 56 by mike the wiz, posted 04-03-2007 10:03 AM nator has replied
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    mike the wiz
    Member
    Posts: 4752
    From: u.k
    Joined: 05-24-2003


    Message 56 of 169 (393029)
    04-03-2007 10:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 55 by nator
    04-03-2007 8:04 AM


    Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
    What makes you think that atheists "do whatever the hell they want"?
    I can relate to what he said, and it isn't necessarily that he is saying that atheists can me immoral, but that you don't have the burden of worrying about what God thinks of your actions, you don't have the guilt, the worry incase you sin, or the obligations, to pray etc..

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by nator, posted 04-03-2007 8:04 AM nator has replied

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    nator
    Member (Idle past 2169 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 57 of 169 (393033)
    04-03-2007 10:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 56 by mike the wiz
    04-03-2007 10:03 AM


    Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
    quote:
    I can relate to what he said, and it isn't necessarily that he is saying that atheists can me immoral, but that you don't have the burden of worrying about what God thinks of your actions, you don't have the guilt, the worry incase you sin, or the obligations, to pray etc..
    He said that he would cheat on his wife if he stopped believing in god, and his justification for this was that if he was an Atheist he could do whatever the hell he wanted.
    That certainly looks as though he is saying that Atheism justifies being immoral, or justifies hurting other people.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 58 of 169 (393043)
    04-03-2007 11:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 55 by nator
    04-03-2007 8:04 AM


    Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
    Nator writes:
    You fear eternal damnation for yourself, which is a consequence of "jumping the fence".
    On the other hand, Atheist moral codes tend to be much more concerned with how their actions affect others around us.
    To be honest, I don't fear eternal damnation. The way I see it, God could squash me like a bug any ole time He wanted. I know that I am not my own Boss. I think, however, that some believers could well be every bit as concerned as atheists with how our actions affect those around us.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 59 of 169 (393056)
    04-03-2007 12:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by mike the wiz
    04-03-2007 10:03 AM


    Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
    mike the wiz writes:
    I can relate to what he said, and it isn't necessarily that he is saying that atheists can me immoral, but that you don't have the burden of worrying about what God thinks of your actions, you don't have the guilt, the worry incase you sin, or the obligations, to pray etc..
    Yes, I can see how this could be cause for concern. But only in a very limited, extremely narrow view.
    An atheist does not have the burden of worrying about what God thinks. Yet they certainly have the burden of worrying about what their respected peers/friends/family members/loved ones think. Or even about what they themselves will think.
    This certainly does cause the exact same guilt, worry, and obligations.
    Not being able to open one's view and see this equality of moral motives is what actually causes concern from me.
    This would tell us that the problem of holding the view that atheists can "do whatever the hell they want", isn't with theism and atheism, but more with the narrow and stifling framework that such an idea came from.
    How could someone possibly believe that their God is the only source of goodwill, when there are millions of people who are living, physical proof against this? Or even the billions of people who believe that some other God is the source, and they too live extremely good lives each and every day?

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    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 60 of 169 (393080)
    04-03-2007 1:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 59 by Stile
    04-03-2007 12:04 PM


    Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
    Stile writes:
    How could someone possibly believe that their God is the only source of goodwill, when there are millions of people who are living, physical proof against this? Or even the billions of people who believe that some other God is the source, and they too live extremely good lives each and every day?
    This is a strawman.
    I don't personally know of any Christians, (which doesn't mean that they don't exist), that believe that only Christians are the recipients of goodwill as given by God.
    I'm sure the vast majority of Christians would agree that all mankind has been given the knowledge of good and evil and the ability to choose between the two.
    Christianity teaches that by accepting Christ as Lord one has their conscience invigorated. This does not necessarily make him more a person of good will than his next door neighbour. The only person it should make him better than is the person he was before.

    Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by Stile, posted 04-03-2007 12:04 PM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 62 by Stile, posted 04-03-2007 2:17 PM GDR has replied

      
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