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Author Topic:   Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 241 of 300 (393037)
04-03-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by ringo
04-03-2007 9:00 AM


Re: Lashing out???
Ringo writes:
Do you think a religion is somehow "better" if it's illogical. Is that why you're reluctant to examine yours? Afraid you might find something that makes sense?
No. Quite honestly, I am afraid that if I abandon belief and follow the logic trail, I may find myself following a manmade religion which is not really religious. Consider the following excerpt from The Humanist Manifesto II:
The next century can be and should be the humanistic century. Dramatic scientific, technological, and ever-accelerating social and political changes crowd our awareness. We have virtually conquered the planet, explored the moon, overcome the natural limits of travel and communication; we stand at the dawn of a new age, ready to move farther into space and perhaps inhabit other planets. Using technology wisely, we can control our environment, conquer poverty, markedly reduce disease, extend our life-span, significantly modify our behavior, alter the course of human evolution and cultural development, unlock vast new powers, and provide humankind with unparalleled opportunity for achieving an abundant and meaningful life.
Gimme a break! Conquered the planet? Control our environment? I see the Ye shall be as gods syndrome. I suppose that what I am saying is that the reason I cling to certain fundamentals is because I dont believe in human potential as a way to solve the worlds problems. That may be why I cling to a belief that there is a spiritual war and that humans are pawns with a freewill choice. I cling to irrationality because I have lost faith in rationality. Does that make any sense? Of course, the Manifesto itself has some god points.
False "theologies of hope" and messianic ideologies, substituting new dogmas for old, cannot cope with existing world realities. They separate rather than unite peoples.
This is true. Religious fundamentalism unchecked is a threat to world stability. Consider though...what if there really is some sort of a spiritual war? Do I abandon my faith and side with the humanist camp? Must there be a rift between us? As long as they claim that my hopes are false and deluded, I will never be on their side.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by ringo, posted 04-03-2007 9:00 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 04-03-2007 10:58 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 249 by nator, posted 04-03-2007 11:06 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 04-03-2007 11:16 AM Phat has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 242 of 300 (393039)
04-03-2007 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
04-02-2007 9:31 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS IV
jar writes:
there are areas where doubt should be the norm. That would include areas such as the existence of GOD as well as other areas where it is impossible to know, test or verify the answer. In those areas the individual should always continue to doubt, to question.
to which Phat replied:
quote:
So I am assuming that you don't believe that people ever get saved or meet God or that God imparts anything into them?
No! I am saying as a fact that no one ever knows that they are saved until after they have died, or that they met GOD or that GOD imparted something to them. They may well believe such things, but they cannot know.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 04-02-2007 9:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Phat, posted 04-03-2007 10:55 AM jar has replied
 Message 253 by anastasia, posted 04-03-2007 12:18 PM jar has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 243 of 300 (393040)
04-03-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
04-03-2007 10:46 AM


Knowing vs Believing
Although it may scare many Christians to declare that they don't know if they are saved but merely believe that they are saved, I can see your point and am unafraid to admit that I don't know...with Gods help, of course.
You have stated that you believe that God is unknowable. I resisted your assertion because it challenged my beliefs. How could the God that I believe that I know be so unknowable?
I continued reading The Humanist Manifesto II and read:
We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or authoritarian religions that place revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a disservice to the human species. Any account of nature should pass the tests of scientific evidence; in our judgment, the dogmas and myths of traditional religions do not do so.
I simply cannot place human needs or experience above God, whether I know Him or not. Its a basic fundamental aspect of my belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 04-03-2007 10:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by jar, posted 04-03-2007 11:05 AM Phat has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 244 of 300 (393041)
04-03-2007 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by ICANT
04-03-2007 10:13 AM


Re: Re-Doubts and Logic
quote:
Since Science cannot answer the 2 most important questions why should I trust Science over my faith in God.
Your superstitions can't answer those questions either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by ICANT, posted 04-03-2007 10:13 AM ICANT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 245 of 300 (393042)
04-03-2007 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Phat
04-03-2007 10:37 AM


Re: Lashing out???
Let's take a look at the items on the list.
Do you think we should try to:
  • control our environment?
  • conquer poverty?
  • markedly reduce disease?
  • extend our life-span?
  • significantly modify our behavior?
  • alter the course of human evolution and cultural development?
  • unlock vast new powers?
  • provide humankind with unparalleled opportunity for achieving an abundant and meaningful life?
That is the problem and critical failure of religions such as what you espouse. Your response to those issues was "I see the Ye shall be as gods syndrome."
The Christian Response on the other hand can be seen in exactly those issues is to say, "Yes! Let us try to make the world better."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 04-03-2007 10:37 AM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 246 of 300 (393044)
04-03-2007 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by CTD
04-03-2007 10:09 AM


CTD writes:
Judging from your repeated use of the question "why not?", it appears you did not read or did not understand the I Cor. 15 verses.
Why do you assume there is only one way to "understand" Corinthians?
I have never heard of any Christian denomination that would claim this. Is there one?
Why does there have to be a denomination? Can't individual Christians think for themselves?
It's commonly accepted that Christians at least know what the term "gospel" refers to.
Most of the professing Christians that I've encountered on this board don't understand what the gospel is. (What's "commonly accepted" isn't always right.)
... without exception the faith is always in a LIVING Saviour.
Well, I'm at least one exception that proves you wrong. The historical existence of Jesus - never mind whether or not He rose from the dead - is irrelevant to the gospel. If you examine your faith, you might come to understand that.
I'm sure you'd prefer that I'd run around in circles forever, trying in vain to force you to admit that you understand my previous posts.
When did I say I didn't understand your posts? I'm saying that you're wrong, not incomprehensible.
Don't get me wrong; I see you've raised the issue that faith itself should be doubted, simply because it is faith.
You're thinking too small. Everything should be doubted, not just faith - because nothing is certain.
You've also to convince us that all faith is essentially "blind".
Shall I quote Paul again?
quote:
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith is about what is not seen.
Trouble is: I've already evaluated these issues; they're old enough to retire and they're no longer a challenge.
When you've reached all your goals, it's time to set your sights higher.
I doubt that I'll be able to abandon my faith, so don't get your hopes up.
I don't want you to abandon your faith. I've already said that.
I want you to strengthen it.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by CTD, posted 04-03-2007 10:09 AM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by CTD, posted 04-03-2007 12:35 PM ringo has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 247 of 300 (393045)
04-03-2007 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Phat
04-03-2007 10:55 AM


Re: Knowing vs Believing
I simply cannot place human needs or experience above God, whether I know Him or not. Its a basic fundamental aspect of my belief.
Even though that is exactly what GOD and Jesus have told you to do?
Exactly what is is that YOU can do for GOD?
Does GOD need shelter?
Does GOD need food?
Does GOD need security?
Does GOD need health care?
Sorry Phat, but there is jack shit that you can do for GOD. If you think you can, who exactly is the one thinking he is as a God?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Phat, posted 04-03-2007 10:55 AM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 248 of 300 (393046)
04-03-2007 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by ICANT
04-03-2007 10:13 AM


Re: Re-Doubts and Logic
ICANT writes:
I don't doubt that to Ringo logic is all important.
You should doubt that.
Logic is good where logic works. If logic doesn't work, faith is fine as a backup.
But God defies logic.
Tell that to the IDists.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by ICANT, posted 04-03-2007 10:13 AM ICANT has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 249 of 300 (393047)
04-03-2007 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Phat
04-03-2007 10:37 AM


Re: Lashing out???
quote:
I suppose that what I am saying is that the reason I cling to certain fundamentals is because I dont believe in human potential as a way to solve the worlds problems.
But Phat, you used to believe that god was going help you win the lottery. He never did, did he?
It's up to humans to fix it, or at least try to.
Waiting around for god to fix things is just a religious smokescreen for self-absorption and laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 04-03-2007 10:37 AM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 250 of 300 (393050)
04-03-2007 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Phat
04-03-2007 10:37 AM


Re: Lashing out???
Phat writes:
I may find myself following a manmade religion which is not really religious.
Is "being religious" the goal? I thought that was Jesus' pet peeve about the Pharisees.
I cling to irrationality because I have lost faith in rationality. Does that make any sense?
Maybe you shouldn't have had "faith" in rationality in the first place. Even rationality is shaky if you put it on an irrational foundation.
Maybe you should "trust" rationality instead - because it works.
Of course, the Manifesto itself has some god points.
Nice typo.
As long as they claim that my hopes are false and deluded, I will never be on their side.
So it's a pride thing? Respect your opinions or you won't play?
Edited by Ringo, : Changed single quote to double quote - shift key failing... becoming arachnophilia....

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 04-03-2007 10:37 AM Phat has not replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 251 of 300 (393054)
04-03-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by crashfrog
04-02-2007 9:21 AM


Crashfrog writes:
Anastasia's point is diametrically opposed to yours. Her position is that God doesn't want to preserve the accuracy of his message, lest we all be forced into believing the exact same thing. I'd think twice before you tried to employ her views in your favor; they don't fit.
Crashfrog, I never said this. What would be the point of following a religion if I thought there was no preservation? Am I trying to stumble around in the dark here on purpose?
I think that if your disdain for religion does not allow you to see the logic of another person's position, then yes, you should refrain from dialoguing with them. You have taken your stand. You have not shown that you are able to doubt yourself or think critically about the way another person has arrived at their conclusions. There is nothing wrong with saying, 'yes, this makes sense, but it doesn't feel right to me as a personal belief'.
I think that all of the Christians here are willing to do this towards you folks. We are willing to see that you don't need to be a stark raving lunatic not to believe in God. We are willing to say that you don't have to be an immoral scoundrel as a result either.
I for one will never, ever tell you that my faith has no logic to speak of. I can't answer for Phat or anyone else. Mystical experiences are beyond my experiences and may indeed defy logic. Yet, for a person to believe based on what they know of their own experiences, is not something that is is irrational.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by crashfrog, posted 04-02-2007 9:21 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by crashfrog, posted 04-03-2007 1:37 PM anastasia has replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 252 of 300 (393057)
04-03-2007 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Larni
04-03-2007 8:20 AM


OT is cool!
Thanks for the lesson.
However, I wouldn't agree that this is not an aspect of intuition. Other aspects of intuition do exactly the same thing: they perform calculations and evaluations far more rapidly than the main, conscious, "thinking" part of the mind (I'm tired.)
Larni writes:
By then your brain has done the maths to catch the ball.
Yes, but not using means that you are aware of.
You can do these things without ever learning math, can you not?
Whether or not we can agree on a way to define intuition, I am unconvinced that analogous functions are missing for other purposes. Indeed, we make many, many decisions. If we have an Optic Tau which we only occasionally use, why don't you think we have a Choice Tau as well?
See, knowing things is not predicated upon being able to express them rationally. Otherwise you couldn't know anything until you learned language. And how about animals? And absolute certainty is available, as absolute as it ever gets, without any need to express it rationally. Some of the most basic, important, fundamental things we know are the ones we learned before we could speak, let alone apply formal logic to explain them.
Really, Optic Tau strongly implies that we knew complex math before we ever learned to count! No, I don't buy for one minute that everything I can't express logically and rationally is inferior knowledge on that basis alone.
But maybe it's been forgotten that logic isn't foolproof. Just look at the number of logical fallacies available. Are we so perfect that we can catch them all? If so, every post that contains one is evidence of an intentional lie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Larni, posted 04-03-2007 8:20 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Larni, posted 04-03-2007 12:41 PM CTD has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 253 of 300 (393058)
04-03-2007 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
04-03-2007 10:46 AM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS IV
jar writes:
No! I am saying as a fact that no one ever knows that they are saved until after they have died, or that they met GOD or that GOD imparted something to them. They may well believe such things, but they cannot know.
Stepping outside of faith, no one 'knows' anything for sure.
Within Christianity, the thought that you can never know anything of God or of salvation is a sin against Hope. It also makes God a liar. The Bible and Jesus teach that we can do things to merit salvation. If someone does not like the word 'merit' fine, we can be the benefactors of the grace of God.
All we can do is follow to the best of our abilities. If we do this we have every reason to believe in our own salvation. We can not be presumptuous or self-righteous, but we must have hope and confidence. We must not feel that there is a heavenly lottery drawing.
Doubting one's salvation is NOT productive. A very strong awareness of how easily we could lose it is not the same as despair in God's teachings. Are we doubting our own merit, or the promises of God? One leads to action, another to despair. It is important to distinguish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 04-03-2007 10:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 04-03-2007 12:27 PM anastasia has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 254 of 300 (393059)
04-03-2007 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by anastasia
04-03-2007 12:18 PM


Re: TOPIC SYNOPSIS IV
Stepping outside of faith, no one 'knows' anything for sure.
Of course you can. The whole field of mathematics is based on proofs.
There are also things where we can have so high a level of confidence that it approaches surety. Examples would be that evolution happened or that there has never been a flood as described in the Bible.
Within Christianity, the thought that you can never know anything of God or of salvation is a sin against Hope.
Sorry but that makes no sense. Hope is by definition related to uncertainty.
Doubting one's salvation is NOT productive.
Why? Is it not productive to try and behave better?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by anastasia, posted 04-03-2007 12:18 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by anastasia, posted 04-03-2007 1:23 PM jar has replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 255 of 300 (393060)
04-03-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
04-03-2007 11:02 AM


Well, I'm at least one exception that proves you wrong. The historical existence of Jesus - never mind whether or not He rose from the dead - is irrelevant to the gospel. If you examine your faith, you might come to understand that.
Am I to understand you invented a straw man Christianity in order to dispute what I said, and then decided to convert to it in order to conform to the rules? Puh-leeze!
Well, you got me to smile. Gotta split.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 04-03-2007 11:02 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 04-03-2007 12:41 PM CTD has not replied
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 04-03-2007 1:53 PM CTD has not replied

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