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Author Topic:   Get Over Your Fear of Atheism
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1562 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 61 of 169 (393093)
04-03-2007 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by RickJB
04-03-2007 3:24 AM


Social Consequences
quote:
In light of this it seems to me that social consequences provide a much firmer moral base than the tenets of any given faith.....
You would think so since those consequences are in realtime and not postponed to some later unknown date.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3418
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 62 of 169 (393094)
04-03-2007 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by GDR
04-03-2007 1:41 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
GDR writes:

Stile writes:

How could someone possibly believe that their God is the only source of goodwill, when there are millions of people who are living, physical proof against this? Or even the billions of people who believe that some other God is the source, and they too live extremely good lives each and every day?


This is a strawman.

Of course it is. That's my entire point, that this line of thinking, this whole entire idea, is a strawman. I was replying to:

mike the wiz writes:

..that you [atheists] don't have the burden of worrying about what God thinks of your actions, you don't have the guilt, the worry incase you sin, or the obligations, to pray etc..

Which is, of course, a strawman. Thank-you for so explicitly pointing it out.

GDR writes:

Christianity teaches that by accepting Christ as Lord one has their conscience invigorated. This does not necessarily make him more a person of good will than his next door neighbour. The only person it should make him better than is the person he was before.

I agree. Which also proves my point (and yours) that the statement I took from mike the wiz's post was a strawman. I don't even think he meant it in the way I took it. But, as you've so graciously explained, in and of itself it certainly is a strawman.

...

strawman

...

Just thought that maybe we needed to use the buzzwords, or something :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by GDR, posted 04-03-2007 1:41 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4782
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 63 of 169 (393098)
04-03-2007 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Stile
04-03-2007 2:17 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Stile writes:

Of course it is. That's my entire point, that this line of thinking, this whole entire idea, is a strawman.


It is obvious that being subtle doesn't work that well with me. :)


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 64 of 169 (393114)
04-03-2007 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Stile
04-03-2007 2:17 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Which also proves my point (and yours) that the statement I took from mike the wiz's post was a strawman.

Like Donald duck proves that ducks can talk.

Stile, are you acting a stool?

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3418
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 65 of 169 (393119)
04-03-2007 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by mike the wiz
04-03-2007 3:11 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
mike the wiz writes:

Like Donald duck proves that ducks can talk.

Stile, are you acting a stool?

I, uh... don't know if you're joking around, or insulting me :)

If you want to talk about something, it would help if you were a bit more specific.

I understand that these last few posts were confusing. I took a certain point from your post out of context and dealt with it on it's own... GDR did the same thing with one of my points... are you now doing the same thing to complete the circle? :)

Again, if there's anything you feel I mis-represented, let's talk about it. If not, and you're just having fun... uh... *high fives*


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 66 of 169 (393123)
04-03-2007 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
04-01-2007 1:57 PM


It is better to be a Calvinist than an atheist.
Thank God for freedom of thought.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 67 of 169 (393165)
04-03-2007 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Stile
04-03-2007 3:25 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
I'm just releasing some goon juices from my humour-bladder. Apparently everyone was under strawman's arrest.
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3605 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 68 of 169 (393183)
04-03-2007 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
04-03-2007 12:52 AM


Re: Several Key Points
Phat wrote:

Just make it clear that atheism is not for everyone, and each has to decide what is Faith and what is self deception. One mans self deception is not universally true for everyone.


Hi, Phat,

Please allow me to paraphrase this with a different twist:

'Just make it clear that reasoning is not for everyone, and each has to decide what is Faith and what is reasonable. One man's Faith is not universally true for everyone...but one man's reasoning could be universally true for everyone.'

Think of Newton, for example, who understood the difference between reasoning and Faith. He proved rather convincingly that his universal gravitational constant applies to everyone universally.

Could you be more specfic about what you mean by "self deception"? Self-deception is what an atheist hates most.

—HM


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mpb1
Member (Idle past 4243 days)
Posts: 66
From: Texas
Joined: 03-24-2007


Message 69 of 169 (393188)
04-03-2007 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by nator
04-03-2007 10:18 AM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
NATOR SAID:

"He said that he would cheat on his wife if he stopped believing in god, and his justification for this was that if he was an Atheist he could do whatever the hell he wanted."

This isn't what I said. If you're going to quote, please quote accurately. What you inferred from my statement is not what I said.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Just FYI... I won't be replying on this thread any further - not for any particular reason. I simply have nothing else to add, and don't feel the need to explain or defend myself or my beliefs. Feel free to judge my previous posts any way you choose.

Take care folks,
Mark

-


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 169 (393189)
04-03-2007 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by mpb1
04-03-2007 8:25 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Mark, if you should want to explore possible paths and solutions to the issues raised by Science and Christianity, I would be happy to point you towards some resources.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19811
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 71 of 169 (393207)
04-03-2007 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
04-01-2007 1:57 PM


vs Deism
Personally I see no difference between atheism and deism as far as morals, behavior, etcetera go. There is no vengeful sits-in-judgment God that decides your end fate, but one off doing something else. My morality is not based on some cook-book recipe for salvation or fear of final retribution but rational social behavior - no different from atheists or agnostics.

The logical position is agnostic - the "we don't know" position. Either side of that is a choice, and atheists go one way, theists the other. Agnostics, atheists and deists agree that - generally speaking - we can't know god or god's purpose, we just disagree on the reasons.

Either way the effect on personal morality is the same: we make choices that affect how we interact with other members of our species, which happens to be a social species, and those choices are based on our being a social species.

Morality would be different for sharks, catbirds, antelope and starfish if they {could\would\should} think about such things.

I envision this as a thread where what it means to live as an atheist can be explored, and what, if anything, is lost or gained when the choice is made to abandon self-deception and embrace atheism.

I don't think I've gained or lost anything compared to being an atheist: I've made a decision the same as an atheist has, with just as much self-deception as the atheist (ie - not choosing agnosticism), but also one not clouded by any deceptions of myths and fantasies either. Let the evidence show what is real.

Enjoy.


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3388
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 72 of 169 (393247)
04-04-2007 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by mpb1
04-03-2007 8:25 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
NATOR SAID:
"He said that he would cheat on his wife if he stopped believing in god, and his justification for this was that if he was an Atheist he could do whatever the hell he wanted."

This isn't what I said. If you're going to quote, please quote accurately. What you inferred from my statement is not what I said.

With all due respect, Mark, it certainly looked to me like you had stated, repeatedly, what Nator summarized there.

Could you please set the record straight, then, and explain what it was that you had actually said and in what manner you believe that Nator had misrepresented you?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mpb1
Member (Idle past 4243 days)
Posts: 66
From: Texas
Joined: 03-24-2007


Message 73 of 169 (393512)
04-05-2007 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by dwise1
04-04-2007 1:06 AM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist

dwise1, this is part of Message 47:

----------------------------

"Nator,

I think your point is a good one. I have to agree.

As Christians, I think we sort of have it in our heads that the FIRST reason we do right is to obey God's commands. All other reasons seem to come after that... So if the question is, "Would I cheat on my wife if I were not a Christian?" then I would have to say, "I hope not" ...for all the good reasons you mentioned.

But I think I was referring back to the moments when I began to doubt Christianity, and for several weeks I wondered if I could end up an atheist. During those times, I could sense a part of me almost wishing I could turn my back on Christianity, so I could do whatever the hell I wanted.

Atheists have no "moral fence" around them, except consequences. Christians usually think of disobedience to God even before "consequences" to themselves or others.

That's why I admitted near the beginning of this thread that I if ever walked away from the faith, it would probably be at least partially motivated by a desire to do whatever the hell I wanted - because that was the temptation I felt when I considered the possibility."

----------------------------

I just don't want to argue any more about Christian morality vs. atheist morality, or reasons any of us do or do not engage in certain activities. It's a pointless exercise...

Thanks,
Mark

Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.

Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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kjsimons
Member
Posts: 665
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 74 of 169 (393518)
04-05-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by mpb1
04-05-2007 2:14 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
I just don't want to argue any more about Christian morality vs. atheist morality, or reasons any of us do or do not engage in certain activities. It's a pointless exercise...

But this is the whole point of this topic! Christians and other religious faithfulls are always pointing out the evils of being an atheist because supposedly we atheists have no "real" morals. They are always equating atheist=amoral which is just not true. You yourself have this same ignorant view of what it is to be an atheist. If you don't want to discuss the central pont of this topic then why are you here?


This message is a reply to:
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Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 75 of 169 (393523)
04-05-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by mpb1
04-05-2007 2:14 PM


For Mark
Mark writes:

I just don't want to argue any more about Christian morality vs. atheist morality, or reasons any of us do or do not engage in certain activities. It's a pointless exercise...

Would it still be pointless if it appeared that Christian morality and atheist morality are actually the same?

I've "quoted" myself on this in another thread, and I say "quoted" because I never said what I quoted before I quoted it. But I'll say it again right here and now, if you can still follow me:

I get my morality from exactly the same source as a Christian does, and it's not the Bible. I can prove that, challenge me.

Mark, if you're still interested, I'd be willing to discuss this with you.

Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.


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