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Author Topic:   A personal morality
kuresu
Member (Idle past 620 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 31 of 196 (392983)
04-03-2007 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rob
04-03-2007 12:24 AM


Re: you are correct...
why would it be? I'm holding myself accountable. it does a pretty good job right now.

never claimed it was perfect either.

I don't see where you're going with this, unless you're trying to somehow prove that having God hold you accountable is a better system. Here's a hint--your system fails just like mine does. Granted, you can stay a child with your system, which is easier. Always easier having someone else tell you what to do than yourself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:24 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 1:12 AM kuresu has responded

    
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 32 of 196 (392987)
04-03-2007 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by kuresu
04-03-2007 1:01 AM


Re: you are correct...
Kuresu:
never claimed it was perfect either.

Here's a hint--your system fails just like mine does.

I don't see how a moral system can fail... it is what it is.

I failed it! You failed it...

The moral code does nothing to help me be moral. It actually condemns me.

You know that don't you? And that's why people try to relativize it away, and come up with their own system. But they still fail...

Rules will not save us. because we don't obey them...

Why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by kuresu, posted 04-03-2007 1:01 AM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by fallacycop, posted 04-03-2007 1:28 AM Rob has responded
 Message 34 by kuresu, posted 04-03-2007 8:54 AM Rob has responded

    
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 3627 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 33 of 196 (392989)
04-03-2007 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Rob
04-03-2007 1:12 AM


Re: you are correct...
And that's why people try to relativize it away, and come up with their own system.
I don`t think people com up with moral systems because they want to do away with someoneelse`s moral system. We all do it because we are moral beings. It is in our nature. We just can`t help it. That does not make those morals absolute, though. they are relative because they were created by men, not gods. they are just the best we could com up with, as human beings.

Rules will not save us.
. salvation seems to be such a selfish reason for anybody to try to be moral. It`s so blatantly contradictory that I don`t see how it could possibily work.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 1:12 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 620 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 34 of 196 (393015)
04-03-2007 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Rob
04-03-2007 1:12 AM


Re: you are correct...
I didn't fail the moral system. The moral system is not separate from me. It is my morality. Hence, I fail me.

And the system I was referring to was my conscience, my sense of right and wrong, that voice that says "don't do this", or makes me feel bad (or good) after I've done wrong (or right).

My system is not your set of god-given rules. Don't confuse them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 1:12 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 9:18 AM kuresu has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 35 of 196 (393019)
04-03-2007 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Neutralmind
04-02-2007 8:57 PM


quote:
I still refuse to believe in it (relative morality). I have a fear, no... I know that if I KNEW for sure, that there was absolutely no doubt that relative morality is correct I'd become one of the most immoral guys in this planet. I'd start "playing" girls just to get sex and doing one night stands. I'd cheat everywhere I could in the working life and so on...

Really?

You have that much a disregard for the feelings of others that you could hurt people and not care that you hurt them?

That makes you a sociopath.


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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 36 of 196 (393021)
04-03-2007 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by kuresu
04-03-2007 8:54 AM


Re: you are correct...
Kuresu, earlier in the thread, you asked me to answer your question. I did.

I ask for the same curtiousy...

I asked, 'Why you violate your own morality'?

Your response was, 'It is my morality. Hence, I fail me.'

Ok... I know....

Why? What is the motive?

Also, you said:

My system is not your set of god-given rules

So why don't you tell me what your system is...

What is moral, and what is immoral, for Kuresu... that Rob may do unto you, without protest?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by kuresu, posted 04-03-2007 8:54 AM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 37 of 196 (393026)
04-03-2007 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by fallacycop
04-03-2007 1:28 AM


Re: you are correct...
fallacycop:
I don`t think people com up with moral systems because they want to do away with someone else`s moral system. We all do it because we are moral beings.

Curiously enough, we expect ourselves to be moral (particularly our neighbor)...

But show me one who actually is!

fallacycop:

It is in our nature. We just can`t help it. That does not make those morals absolute, though. they are relative because they were created by men, not gods. they are just the best we could com up with, as human beings.

Our nature is to lie, kill, and steal etc... to aquire what it is we want for the moment.

The depravity of man, is at once, the most emperically verifiable reality. And yet, at the same time, it is the most intellectually resisted fact. (Malcomb Muggeridge)

I don't the think the Ten Commandments were created by men. It seems to me, that men really wish to get rid of them.

But on what real moral grounds do they protest them?

Hmm?

To protest is to imply a moral doctrine.

For example... War is protested as wrong. Bush is protested at home as a liar. Bush is protested by Chavez as the devil.

So it appears that to deny what is said to be reality, or our nature, is not seen as simply 'incorrect', but vociferously protested as anti-being.

fallacycop:

salvation seems to be such a selfish reason for anybody to try to be moral. It`s so blatantly contradictory that I don`t see how it could possibily work.

Who tries to be moral so as to be saved?
Morality is what condemns us.

When we go to court, it is the law that makes us guilty. It doesn't save. And it cannot save.

If we were really honest with a human judge, he would be appalled. And that is why we pretend to be so righteous. We dare not confess everything... And we justify with nuance, why it is that we are excepted in this instance. This is because we believe we cannot trust each other to forgive. So truth is killed in our spirit. If we tell the truth, we're ostricized (boy... is that true). If we don't, we continue the charade and live in fantasy.

We're trapped.

John5:45 "But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.

Gravity is a law that will kill you. But it also keeps you anchored firmly to the ground, so as not to float away into oblivion.

But in moral terms, we cannot obey, because we are out of control prisoners to our own flesh. It is really only fear that keeps us in check.

Fear of consequence. And rightly so. Just as I fear jumping off tall buildings.

Without consequence, or fear of it, all hell would be unleashed.

And for those who deny the real and painful consequences of their sin upon others, there will be hell to pay.

And since each of us does that, we are all condemned.

Anyone want to make a plea bargain?

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by kuresu, posted 04-03-2007 1:09 PM Rob has not yet responded
 Message 82 by Parasomnium, posted 04-04-2007 5:58 PM Rob has responded

    
kuresu
Member (Idle past 620 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 38 of 196 (393067)
04-03-2007 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Rob
04-03-2007 9:18 AM


Re: you are correct...
that's not my answer to your question. If you'll read carefully, you'll see that it is a response to your statement that "we failed it[the moral system].

I've told you why I do break my own morality.
I've told you what my system is.

the last half of your last question is irrelevant. The whole question also requires an incredibly massive post if I'm going to list what I feel is right/wrong and why I feel such (and then I will still miss many many items).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 9:18 AM Rob has not yet responded

    
kuresu
Member (Idle past 620 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 39 of 196 (393069)
04-03-2007 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rob
04-03-2007 9:52 AM


Re: you are correct...
dude. since when did breaking a single moral make one depraved? you make it out to be that a man is always breaking the rules.

throw out Hobbes, man.

Our nature is to lie, kill, and steal etc... to aquire what it is we want for the moment

this same nature includes love, friendship, helping people, being good. it also includes planning for the future (yes, some of us do it because we can see the big picture--we don't live for today, but for tomorrow.

Human nature is not solely bad. We can do good without the "Fear of consequence". We're not all out to rape and pillage. In fact, most of us aren't.

If we were really honest with a human judge, he would be appalled

really? try me.

sorry I don't fit your misconcieved stereotype of mankind. Actually, I'm not sorry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 9:52 AM Rob has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 196 (393120)
04-03-2007 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by kuresu
04-02-2007 9:14 PM


if you seriously, honestly believe that something is wrong or right, why would you change your behavior if you eliminate the "objective" part of morality? this makes no sense to me (that you would, that is).

To reap the reward of the immoral behavior.

if you feel that it is wrong to steal, why would you steal?

For the money.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by kuresu, posted 04-02-2007 9:14 PM kuresu has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 196 (393124)
04-03-2007 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by kuresu
04-02-2007 11:36 PM


Re: you are correct...
an objective morality would be free of bias, would be free of life experiences, there would be a single definition of "right" and "wrong" as well as what is "right" and "wrong".

It could exist without us being able to define everything, or even be totally aware of its existance.

God could have an objective morality laid out. We just don't have access to all the definitions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by kuresu, posted 04-02-2007 11:36 PM kuresu has not yet responded

  
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 4231 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 42 of 196 (393128)
04-03-2007 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
04-02-2007 11:07 PM


I can only reply at random times so it might take a while to answer everyone.

crashfrog
Then I suspect you just don't know what moral relativism is. You've already accepted that moral relativism is true. You're reacting to some strawman conception of moral relativism, probably one you got from church.

Now you're assuming a little too much. I've never been part of a church or a christian. I already told I've never even believed in a god :)
crashfrog
Why? Wouldn't the harm those things would do to you and to others be enough to dissuade you? Surely you're not some kind of sociopath, incapable of feeling empathy for others, right?

I would never kill anybody or anything like that, I don't like killing.
But having one night stand for example is different. I'm not really harming anyone now am I, assuming the girl was also looking for a one night of sex?

It's more about that I would start doing things I want, as selfish as they might sometimes be. I believe I only have a right to live if I obey this "natural inmade instinct" that I have.
That my main goal in life is to not act like a jerk to others and that I have a responsibility to not do some things that I'd maybe do otherwise.

I think that I was given freedoms, but also responsibilities when I was chosen to be born instead of that someone else. That if I was to break these responsibilities or went outside my given freedoms I would have violated my "birth rights" and wouldn't no longer be considered worthy of living.

I can't really desribe it better than that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 04-02-2007 11:07 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by crashfrog, posted 04-03-2007 5:41 PM Neutralmind has responded

    
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 43 of 196 (393129)
04-03-2007 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Neutralmind
04-02-2007 8:57 PM


Dear Sir,
Do not trust these people. Not one has read a moral philosopher.

If I were to tell you:
"There are no absolutes!"
Isn't that an absolute?
Rubbish.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Neutralmind, posted 04-02-2007 8:57 PM Neutralmind has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 196 (393130)
04-03-2007 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by joshua221
04-03-2007 4:10 PM


Re: Dear Sir,
Ignatius writes:

If I were to tell you:
"There are no absolutes!"
Isn't that an absolute?
Rubbish.

Classic tactic from the Christian Cult of Ignorance, presenting a strawman argument as though it were a valid consideration.

No one has said that there are no absolutes.

What people have said is that so far no one has been able to show an example of absolute morality or an absolute moral.

If you know of such a critter, please place it on the table to be examined.

Absolutes exist. No one has said that they do not.

So far there is no evidence that Absolute Morality exists.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 45 of 196 (393131)
04-03-2007 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by joshua221
04-03-2007 4:10 PM


Welcome to EvC
Welcome Ignatius,

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