why would it be? I'm holding myself accountable. it does a pretty good job right now.
never claimed it was perfect either.
I don't see where you're going with this, unless you're trying to somehow prove that having God hold you accountable is a better system. Here's a hint--your system fails just like mine does. Granted, you can stay a child with your system, which is easier. Always easier having someone else tell you what to do than yourself.
And that's why people try to relativize it away, and come up with their own system.
I don`t think people com up with moral systems because they want to do away with someoneelse`s moral system. We all do it because we are moral beings. It is in our nature. We just can`t help it. That does not make those morals absolute, though. they are relative because they were created by men, not gods. they are just the best we could com up with, as human beings.
Rules will not save us.
. salvation seems to be such a selfish reason for anybody to try to be moral. It`s so blatantly contradictory that I don`t see how it could possibily work.
quote:I still refuse to believe in it (relative morality). I have a fear, no... I know that if I KNEW for sure, that there was absolutely no doubt that relative morality is correct I'd become one of the most immoral guys in this planet. I'd start "playing" girls just to get sex and doing one night stands. I'd cheat everywhere I could in the working life and so on...
You have that much a disregard for the feelings of others that you could hurt people and not care that you hurt them?
I don`t think people com up with moral systems because they want to do away with someone else`s moral system. We all do it because we are moral beings.
Curiously enough, we expect ourselves to be moral (particularly our neighbor)...
But show me one who actually is!
It is in our nature. We just can`t help it. That does not make those morals absolute, though. they are relative because they were created by men, not gods. they are just the best we could com up with, as human beings.
Our nature is to lie, kill, and steal etc... to aquire what it is we want for the moment.
The depravity of man, is at once, the most emperically verifiable reality. And yet, at the same time, it is the most intellectually resisted fact. (Malcomb Muggeridge)
I don't the think the Ten Commandments were created by men. It seems to me, that men really wish to get rid of them.
But on what real moral grounds do they protest them?
To protest is to imply a moral doctrine.
For example... War is protested as wrong. Bush is protested at home as a liar. Bush is protested by Chavez as the devil.
So it appears that to deny what is said to be reality, or our nature, is not seen as simply 'incorrect', but vociferously protested as anti-being.
salvation seems to be such a selfish reason for anybody to try to be moral. It`s so blatantly contradictory that I don`t see how it could possibily work.
Who tries to be moral so as to be saved? Morality is what condemns us.
When we go to court, it is the law that makes us guilty. It doesn't save. And it cannot save.
If we were really honest with a human judge, he would be appalled. And that is why we pretend to be so righteous. We dare not confess everything... And we justify with nuance, why it is that we are excepted in this instance. This is because we believe we cannot trust each other to forgive. So truth is killed in our spirit. If we tell the truth, we're ostricized (boy... is that true). If we don't, we continue the charade and live in fantasy.
John5:45 "But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.
Gravity is a law that will kill you. But it also keeps you anchored firmly to the ground, so as not to float away into oblivion.
But in moral terms, we cannot obey, because we are out of control prisoners to our own flesh. It is really only fear that keeps us in check.
Fear of consequence. And rightly so. Just as I fear jumping off tall buildings.
Without consequence, or fear of it, all hell would be unleashed.
And for those who deny the real and painful consequences of their sin upon others, there will be hell to pay.
And since each of us does that, we are all condemned.
that's not my answer to your question. If you'll read carefully, you'll see that it is a response to your statement that "we failed it[the moral system].
I've told you why I do break my own morality. I've told you what my system is.
the last half of your last question is irrelevant. The whole question also requires an incredibly massive post if I'm going to list what I feel is right/wrong and why I feel such (and then I will still miss many many items).
dude. since when did breaking a single moral make one depraved? you make it out to be that a man is always breaking the rules.
throw out Hobbes, man.
Our nature is to lie, kill, and steal etc... to aquire what it is we want for the moment
this same nature includes love, friendship, helping people, being good. it also includes planning for the future (yes, some of us do it because we can see the big picture--we don't live for today, but for tomorrow.
Human nature is not solely bad. We can do good without the "Fear of consequence". We're not all out to rape and pillage. In fact, most of us aren't.
If we were really honest with a human judge, he would be appalled
really? try me.
sorry I don't fit your misconcieved stereotype of mankind. Actually, I'm not sorry.
if you seriously, honestly believe that something is wrong or right, why would you change your behavior if you eliminate the "objective" part of morality? this makes no sense to me (that you would, that is).
To reap the reward of the immoral behavior.
if you feel that it is wrong to steal, why would you steal?
I can only reply at random times so it might take a while to answer everyone.
crashfrog Then I suspect you just don't know what moral relativism is. You've already accepted that moral relativism is true. You're reacting to some strawman conception of moral relativism, probably one you got from church.
Now you're assuming a little too much. I've never been part of a church or a christian. I already told I've never even believed in a god :)
crashfrog Why? Wouldn't the harm those things would do to you and to others be enough to dissuade you? Surely you're not some kind of sociopath, incapable of feeling empathy for others, right?
I would never kill anybody or anything like that, I don't like killing. But having one night stand for example is different. I'm not really harming anyone now am I, assuming the girl was also looking for a one night of sex?
It's more about that I would start doing things I want, as selfish as they might sometimes be. I believe I only have a right to live if I obey this "natural inmade instinct" that I have. That my main goal in life is to not act like a jerk to others and that I have a responsibility to not do some things that I'd maybe do otherwise.
I think that I was given freedoms, but also responsibilities when I was chosen to be born instead of that someone else. That if I was to break these responsibilities or went outside my given freedoms I would have violated my "birth rights" and wouldn't no longer be considered worthy of living.
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