Get Over Your Fear of Atheism

Hi crashfrog,I see your point - that atheists can still be normal human beings, etc.But I have been a Christian since I was 7, and I am now 33, married with three sons. I grew up in a ministry home, went to Bible college for a while (intending to go into ministry, but got sidetracked by marriage and having to make a living). Evangelism has been a passion since I was a teenager, and I've operated a number of (non-profit) Christian websites since 1999. So my roots go down pretty deep, and for me to become an atheist would probably require deprogramming.I began to doubt God's existence for a time after discovering that young-earth creationism was a lie, and then finding out that there was no easy way to reconcile science with Scripture. But I am working through it. Many if not most Christians have struggled with their faith, and it is sometimes difficult to maintain.But I am not convinced that because of the "evidence problems" that Christianity is really a lie. I still struggle with doubt, but I don't want to risk eternity, and I really don't see life as getting better for me if I reject Christianity and biblical guidelines. I have explained to my wife and our two older sons how difficult this faith struggle has been, and I'm even discussed with them how much of a struggle it is to make sense of Genesis in light of science.To help myself and others, I setup HugeDomains.com (main pages up so far), and I'm working on CreationCrisis.com (draft online @ HugeDomains.com) to alert church leaders (who don't realize there's problem, as I didn't for most of my life) to the serious issues Christians face in this area.Some Christians are walking away from the faith, and I suppose I could still make that decision myself. But if I did, it would probably be because I allowed my doubts to overwhelm my faith, and then decided I'd rather live a life outside of God's boundaries (as described in the Bible). I hope that never happens because I really don't believe I'd be better for it (in this life, or the next).-
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I don't think I'd be better for it because I believe God's guidelines for living are designed to protect us as much as to serve His cause.Some atheists may live moral lives of their own accord.I'd probably become a hedonist. Not to mention I'd probably still "believe" in my heart, even if I didn't want to.I think I'll believe in the coming Judgment of God until the day I die. I believe Hell will be punishment followed by eternal destruction if the Lake of Fire. So I don't actually fear "burning forever," but I don't want to miss out on Heaven.I've also lived believing Jesus was my closest friend all my life, and I wouldn't want to give that up either. I depend on Him, and if it turns out I'm wrong in the end, and there is no God, I won't regret my decision for a minute. (I'm sure "little Mark" will, but following him would have cost me my family anyway. So I'll still be better off, no matter what -------------------------------------------------Just refreshed and saw one more response above mine. Maybe what I said in this post will answer that question as well. That's probably the best answer I have for you.-
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I freely admit I "do good" because I believe in God, and He "tells me to." If I didn't believe in God or the Bible, I would WANT to abandon the clean life I have lived up to this point - for the sake of pleasure.If the human race did "good because it is the right thing to do," then Jesus would not have come to die for the sins of mankind. The Bible says, "There is none that doeth good, no not one." "All have sinned."You know the verses...So to some extent, we all choose to do wrong. If we had righteousness in ourselves, this world would not be in the mess it is today.So your question really has no answer because it is based on a false premise.-
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Allow me to clarify... I have only had s-x with one woman in my life - my wife - because of what I believe. That is where the greatest temptation lies with me personally.-

I'm just being honest, that's all...It would be easier to lie and pretend I was supremely moral on my own. But I am not. My belief in God and His Word protects me, even if I'd prefer not to obey some of His rules.But if the Bible is true, and you stand before God one day, by HIS standards, neither you nor any other person will make it into Heaven on their own.IF the Bible is true, then your goodness won't do you a bit of good on Judgment Day.Forgive the preaching. We're all telling it like we see it. This is how I see it.-
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You're right. The stats. show that Christians are just as bad as everyone else.But if you actually try to follow the rules, you sometimes wish you were an atheist - at least every now and then -

jar,In this case, I suppose you're right.-------------------------------------------------------------------Stile,I have no problem granting that you may very well be more of a moral person - naturally - than I am.But by God's standard, "The wages of sin is death," any sin will keep us out of Heaven - apart from grace through faith in the Son of God.So no matter how moral you or anyone else is, if the Bible is true, then all sin will be judged, and those who have not trusted in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior will receive the Judgment of God because they refused to accept the sacrifice of His Son.-
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Stile,If the Bible is true, then He did all He could do.It teaches that God is holy and just, and must punish sin.So He sent His only Son as the sacrifice to pay for our sins.If we refuse to accept His sacrifice, that's not His fault.As far as the people who've never heard the Gospel, the bible teaches we will all be judged by the amount of "light" we had.-

I think standards of "goodness" are different.The world's "good" does not equal the Bible's "obedient."I explained my personal temptations above...-

Nator,I think your point is a good one. I have to agree.As Christians, I think we sort of have it in our heads that the FIRST reason we do right is to obey God's commands. All other reasons seem to come after that... So if the question is, "Would I cheat on my wife if I were not a Christian?" then I would have to say, "I hope not" ...for all the good reasons you mentioned.But I think I was referring back to the moments when I began to doubt Christianity, and for several weeks I wondered if I could end up an atheist. During those times, I could sense a part of me almost wishing I could turn my back on Christianity, so I could do whatever the hell I wanted.Atheists have no "moral fence" around them, except consequences. Christians usually think of disobedience to God even before "consequences" to themselves or others.That's why I admitted near the beginning of this thread that I if ever walked away from the faith, it would probably be at least partially motivated by a desire to do whatever the hell I wanted - because that was the temptation I felt when I considered the possibility.In my opinion, most people are about the same on the goodness scale - probably 80% are of "average goodness," maybe 10% are naturally near-perfect, and maybe another 10% are downright evil. I'd include myself among the 80% who are average (according to my unscientific estimate).The nearly-perfect people are probably the most self-righteous and don't really think they need a Savior. Most of the downright evil people believe they are going to Hell - at least the ones I've talked with in my evangelistic efforts.And the rest of us either follow the faith of our parents, try finding another way to God, or reject faith altogether. In my experience, the higher a person's intellect (or at least the more intellectual a person perceives themself to be), the more likely they are to choose atheism.Jesus himself said he has chosen the foolish and weak things of this world to confound the wise. I believe many atheists simply conclude there is no need for a God in this universe, there isn't enough compelling evidence for one, and they certainly don't want to have to make themselves accountable to one.I went on a bit of rabbit trail here, but I think my original point was that trying to group Christians or atheists as being morally better or worse than anyone else is probably a waste of time - because statistics show there is essentially no difference between us - behaviorally. We're all sinners. Christians just believe they're forgiven.And some Christians sometimes wish there was no "forced" moral code for us to abide by, especially when temptations call. But we also know in our hearts that God's commands are as much for our own protection as anything else.I don't fear Hell if do wrong, because I believe Christ died for my sins. But I believe God will chastise me (as my Heavenly Father) if I commit grave sins against Him, in addition to the other natural consequences that would follow.Sometimes the natural consequences ARE the extent of His discipline, but we also feel a sense of pain in betraying the One we believe loved us so much He sent His only Son to die for us. So we don't want to betray Him, or feel the guilt of our own wrongdoing - which is definitely multiplied in those who seek to obey God.-
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NATOR SAID:"He said that he would cheat on his wife if he stopped believing in god, and his justification for this was that if he was an Atheist he could do whatever the hell he wanted."This isn't what I said. If you're going to quote, please quote accurately. What you inferred from my statement is not what I said.---------------------------------------------------------------Just FYI... I won't be replying on this thread any further - not for any particular reason. I simply have nothing else to add, and don't feel the need to explain or defend myself or my beliefs. Feel free to judge my previous posts any way you choose.Take care folks,
Mark-

dwise1, this is part of Message 47:----------------------------"Nator,I think your point is a good one. I have to agree.As Christians, I think we sort of have it in our heads that the FIRST reason we do right is to obey God's commands. All other reasons seem to come after that... So if the question is, "Would I cheat on my wife if I were not a Christian?" then I would have to say, "I hope not" ...for all the good reasons you mentioned.But I think I was referring back to the moments when I began to doubt Christianity, and for several weeks I wondered if I could end up an atheist. During those times, I could sense a part of me almost wishing I could turn my back on Christianity, so I could do whatever the hell I wanted.Atheists have no "moral fence" around them, except consequences. Christians usually think of disobedience to God even before "consequences" to themselves or others.That's why I admitted near the beginning of this thread that I if ever walked away from the faith, it would probably be at least partially motivated by a desire to do whatever the hell I wanted - because that was the temptation I felt when I considered the possibility."----------------------------I just don't want to argue any more about Christian morality vs. atheist morality, or reasons any of us do or do not engage in certain activities. It's a pointless exercise...Thanks,
Mark
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Hi dwise1,It sounds like you're saying that Christians should STOP teaching that all morality stems from belief in God - and that instead, Christians should teach that morality should stem from morality-based reasoning (or however else you want to define "anything but God").If I weren't a Christian, I'd probably say, "That makes sense to me," especially knowing that when Christians abandon the faith, it can potentially lead to a hedonistic, self-destructive lifestyle.But frankly, I DO believe this really IS more of an academic argument than anything - because I don't really believe morality-based reasoning has any REAL power to stop people from doing whatever the hell it is they want to do.Think about the story you posted of the Christian-turned-atheist in 9th grade. Compare him to the non-Christian kid sitting next to him.Christian 9th grader says, "I'm a Christian. The Bible says drinking and premarital sex are wrong. Evolution disproves the Bible anyway, so I no longer need to abide by its rules, nor should I have be forced to experience guilt. Therefore I can drink and have premarital sex."Non-Christian 9th grader says, "I'm not a Christian. The Bible and its rules mean nothing to me. There is nothing stopping me from drinking and having premarital sex, so I may as well indulge in it."The end result is the same.Perhaps a certain type of atheist wouldn't care so much about the desires of the flesh. But there's no atheist moral code I'm aware of that says premarital sex or drinking is wrong. So if an atheist wants to indulge in those behaviors, they probably will.The average atheist probably thinks that adultery is wrong because it violates a marriage partner. But an atheist's moral code probably isn't going to stop him from committing adultery any more than the Christian's moral code (and associated guilt) stops him from committing adultery - since the behavioral statistics between the two groups are about the same.In principle, even if you were correct - that all humans should base their morality on reason - in the real world, I really don't think it's going to make any difference in lifestyle or behavioral choices.If someone WANTS to be moral (which is subjective anyway), they will. And if they don't, they won't. To Christians, premarital sex and drunkenness are wrong. To the average atheist, chances are those things are NOT viewed as wrong, although adultery would be seen as wrong, since it hurts another person.Yes, ALL people should "do what's right" JUST BECAUSE THEY SHOULD.But in reality, we're all probably going to do what we really WANT to do anyway.I personally do not believe these kinds of arguments affect behavioral choices much at all.-
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jar,It's about time someone tell you that whatever your beliefs are, they are certainly NOT representative of biblical Christianity. You hold an amalgamation of beliefs that you seem to have cobbled together - to your own liking, and you somehow think you are an arbiter of truth.I think you're a complete moron.There I've said it - been wanting to since you began spouting at me in a previous thread.You don't know your butt from a hole in the wall, and you speak from a perch of delusional omniscience.-

Hey dwise1,Since you brought this issue up and argued a good case for your perspective, I've been giving it some thought...I agree that it is just plain stupid for Christians (like myself) to think there are only two basic options in life: a.) to continue being a Christian, or b.) to become a hedonist.It's true that I essentially expressed this sentiment. But I wanted to clarify further and then explain why I think we Christians continue believing that God is the author of morality.First off, when I said I feared that if I gave up on my faith, I might become a hedonist, it should be noted that I (and many other Christians) practically see "the rest of the world" (in America, at least) as being just that - hedonists. So I probably should have said I feared that if I gave up on my faith, I would lose my biblical moral code, and then I would "LIVE LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD."Conservative Christians often see the world from the perspective of "us" and "them," a belief that is clearly derived from the Bible. Christians are NOT supposed to live like the world. We are supposed to obey God's Word and abstain from many behaviors (sins) that are acceptable in the eyes of the world.So for atheists to hear a Christian say, "If I lost my faith, I might become a hedonist," I think an atheist reads a lot more into that THAN IS INTENDED. Hedonism may be thought to include unrestrained sexuality, substance abuse, and perhaps even violent or criminal behavior. Though I said I feared I could become a hedonist (if I gave up on my faith), I personally can't stand the taste of alcohol (any variety) and I have a healthy fear of illicit drugs. So that "almost" (though I realize not completely) removes the element of "self-destructive" from the mild brand of "hedonism" I was referring to.My reference to a fear of hedonism was essentially a reference to the loosening of my moral code to "allow" for pre-marital or extra-marital sex. My 13-year marriage has been a rocky one, and my wife and I have often stayed together for God and/or the kids. If I had become an atheist, then a big barrier - God's commands regarding sexuality - would have been removed from my life, one that currently stops me from "causing" my family to unravel. If I became an atheist, I could potentially give up on my marriage, divorce, and perhaps have pre-marital or extra-marital sex. And I believe that any of these actions would negatively affect my children, as well as my wife.I acknowledge - as it has been said here - that "good" atheists would not want to cheat on their wives because it is wrong to harm another person or violate their trust, etc. BUT it is true that for Christians, who believe they HAVE a "guidebook from God" on HOW to live, that the guidebook and our faith DOES provide a moral fence for us, when we attempt to follow it.Now, as to the question of whether or not Christians are proclaiming a "false teaching" in asserting that all morality comes from God (or the Bible), here is the reason I disagree:The FACT that atheists and people of other cultures who don't have the Bible STILL have a moral code DOES NOT DISPROVE the Christian view that morality comes from God - BECAUSE the Bible teaches that GOD is the one who has given all humanity a conscience.Romans 2:14-16 says:"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." (NAS)The Scripture above agrees with one of your original points - that all human beings have moral reasoning.The only difference is that Christians BELIEVE this "moral reasoning" or conscience COMES FROM GOD - because He said it did.So if you want to argue against the teaching of Scripture, feel free. But to accuse Christians of continuing to proclaim a "false teaching" makes no sense, when the teaching is BASED ON SCRIPTURE, and when science can make no provable claim as to WHERE the HUMAN CONSCIENCE actually came from.Christians say the human conscience came from God - a belief that is based upon Scripture.Atheists say the human conscience is a result of evolution.Neither BELIEF is scientifically provable or disprovable. So this argument, along with so many others, is really just another fundamental disagreement between Christianity and atheism, where we must agree to disagree.Therefore, I believe THIS ARGUMENT is not at all on par with "young-earth creationism," which IS scientifically DISPROVABLE.If atheists want to call the BELIEF that morality comes from God a FALSE BELIEF, they should do so on only one basis: THEIR BELIEF that there is no God and that the Bible is not the work of a supreme being. Period.-
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