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Author Topic:   Get Over Your Fear of Atheism
dwise1
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Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 76 of 169 (393534)
04-05-2007 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by mpb1
04-05-2007 2:14 PM


It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
I just don't want to argue any more about Christian morality vs. atheist morality, or reasons any of us do or do not engage in certain activities. It's a pointless exercise...
No, it's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise". Nor is it really an issue of "Christian morality vs. atheist morality".
Rather, the real issue is what Christianity teaches about morality. Or rather what it misteaches about it -- a secondary and relatively issue is what it also misteaches about atheism and atheists. You have already discovered Christianity's misteachings about science and the lies it propagates through "creation science", as well as the destructive effect those teachings have on the faith of its believers. Well, Christianity's misteachings about morality and about atheism also are also destructive for its believers, more so than "creation science's" destruction of their faith, because the misteachings about morality and atheism can destroy their lives, sometimes literally destroy their lives.
Mark, you yourself very nearly fell victim to those misteachings about morality and atheism. You more than most should realize that this is no mere academic prattling, but rather a vitally important issue. Through your websites, you are trying to warn Christian congregations of how they are destroying Christians' faith so that those congregation will turn away from the lies of "creation science". It is even more important to warn them of how they are misteaching morality.
Have you read my posts in this thread. If not, then please do so and think about it. I'll quickly summarize here in very limited time (I'm writing this on the fly during lunch).
You have repeatedly expressed the standard teachings (which I've repeatedly heard fundamentalist Christians insist on for over 30 years) that if God doesn't exist then morality has no meaning, because God is the source of morality and being moral requires us to be directly responsible to God. That atheists have no God to be responsible to, therefore they have no responsibility to be moral. Furthermore, the teaching is that atheist become atheists in order to escape responsibility for their actions.
The consequences of those standard teachings is that any Christian who is faced with loss of their faith puts mself in a position where he also must abandon morality. That is precisely what you describe yourself as having gone through. That is precisely what all those fundamentalist Christians for more than 30 years have insisted would be the result should they ever lose their faith. Furthermore, those teachings present morality as being little more than an onerous burden, arbitrary rules that serve no discernable purpose, such you end up longing to be rid of them. And those teachings also present a way to be rid of that burden and they gift-wrap it up in an extremely tempting package: you can free yourself of that burden, do whatever you damned well want to, and not be responsible for anything that you do; all you need to do is become an atheist. And I have read the testimony of "former atheists" who described their loss of faith in precisely those terms; creationist Bill Morgan being a prime example (No webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/billyjack6/morgan/aolcreat_doc.html):
quote:
Eventually I made it to ninth grade. While in a Biology class, the teacher was teaching us about evolution and placed the same chart up on the wall. I still remember it. I sat there and studied that chart for a long time. It was on that very day that I recognized a major conflict existed between what this teacher was saying and what the Bible taught. Should I believe my science teacher, who is teaching man has ascended from ape-like animals, or do I believe mommy, daddy, and that book (the Bible) that says God made man instantly from the dust of the ground?" I reasoned that this teacher is a scientist after all, so this must be valid information.
I had a choice to make that millions of people world wide are faced with. Do I believe the Bible or what is taught as science (please note I did not call it science).
In ninth grade I chose to go with the science teacher, and considered myself to be an atheist for about 14 years. I took many more science classes in high school and in college (I am a Mechanical Engineer), and none of these classes changed my beliefs, if anything they reinforced my atheist beliefs.
I assume the majority of you are in college now. Do you understand my story? I am pretty certain you have had several hours of your education dedicated to the teaching of the Theory of Evolution. I would love to hear how this affected you. Has it done anything to your faith? It obliterated mine!
Question! Why in 6th grade did I think the drawings were ridiculous, but in 9th grade I believed them?
Was it because I was more intellectual? No. Was it because the Biology teacher explained it so convincingly? Not really. The real reason for my becoming an atheist in 9th grade can be summed up in one word...hormones. In 6th grade I did not have much temptation in my life. Perhaps my biggest sins were a lie here and there, throwing snowballs at the school bus and riding my minibike where I shouldn’t.
But in 9th grade a whole new world opened up to me. The temptation of drinking, drugs and premarital sex presented themselves to me at exactly the same time I was being taught evolution. I knew the Bible said that being drunk and having sex outside of marriage was wrong, but here is my science teacher, telling me the origin of man is completely contradictory to what the Bible taught as the origin of man. I felt excited.....and decided the Theory of Evolution was for me, after all the Bible was scientifically wrong on the very first page!! I considered myself to be an atheist. As an atheist I no longer had to abide by any rules but my own. If I wanted to get drunk, no problem, if I wanted to try to have premarital sex no problem, I now belonged to the evolution "religion" (religion meaning a system of beliefs built on faith) that allowed me to sin without guilt.
It was not the data that made me an atheist, it was the conclusion, a belief that made me the judge of right and wrong. Those cartoon drawings of ape men did look sharp, but I wanted to believe them emotionally, more than I really believed them intellectually.
Was it evolution that had made him decide to become an "atheist" (it turns out he was only pretending to himself to be an atheist)? No, it was his religious training that had done it. What needs to be done to prevent the same thing from happening to others? Obviously, the religious training these Christians are receiving needs to be corrected. And that's not going to even begin to happen if Christians like you, who know that a grave problem exists, runs off and hides his head in the foundation of sand that he's built his house upon.
Previously in this thread, I presented two Christians going through the same crisis of faith. The one saw morality as arbitrary rules depending on the existence of God and having no other meaning and of himself being reponsible to God and to God alone for his actions; when that Christian lost his faith he abandoned his morality, took the path of self-destructive hedonism, and perished. The other saw morality as an integral part of human life that is vitally important, the rules from God not as a burden but as a precious gift that steer us to morality, and that we are responsible for our actions not only to God but also to ourselves and everyone else; when that Christian lost his faith he retained his morality and he thrived.
Morality is not just arbitrary rules. It's what enables us to live and work together, to get along with each other, and to take proper care of ourselves and of others. Morality exists because we and our societies exist; morality depends on the existence of God just as much and in the same way as we and the world and everything in it does -- ie, if God exists, then morality was created by God along with everything else in the universe; if God does not exist, then morality still exists and functions the same, just as everything in the universe still exists and functions the same.
Teach the truth about morality and you will prevent Christians from abandoning it when and if they lose faith in the existence of God. Duh??
Footnote: an interesting thing about morality and responsibility. This was in our textbook for developmental psychology. Children go through certain stages of development. This also holds true for moral reasoning. Young children especially start off with rules-based morality, in which rules are laid down by an authority (eg, parent, teacher, policeman). Questions of right and wrong are decided solely by whether or not it breaks one of the rules; in the classic scenario of the man stealing medicine without which his sick wife would die, he was definitely wrong because the rules say "don't steal". The child's responsibility is to obey the rules and he is responsible to the authority figure who made the rules. Furthermore, if any harm is done by obeying the rules, it is the authority figure who made that rule who is responsible, not the child who had performed the harmful action in compliance with the rules.
That last one is an interesting side-effect of rules-based morality. In effect, rules-based morality is a way to escape responsibility for one's own actions.
The next stage of development is moral reasoning, in which the child learns to look at the motives for the actions and their consequences. At this stage, the child takes into consideration that the man is stealing the medicine because if he didn't then his wife would die -- a person's life is at stake; which takes precedence, a human life or property? And the child learns to accept responsibility for his own actions.
The former stage, rules-based morality, is descriptive of what we see in the Christian teachings about morality, whereas the latter stage, moral reasoning, is descriptive of what we see of an atheist's morality (and also of a mature Christian's morality, a Christian who has risen above mere rules-based morality). The rules-based Christian accuses the atheist of trying escape responsibility for his actions, whereas we see that the situation is actually reversed -- which has also been verified to me many times over the decades by the outright dishonest actions of far too many creationists with I have tried to discuss their claims).
So it is not "Christian morality vs. atheist morality". Morality is morality. Rather it is an issue of how Christianity is misteaching morality and the effects that has.
BTW, it's not just the Christians who lose their faith who are endangered. Nor is it those of us who will take on collateral damage when they self-destruct as their religion has taught them to do. Rather, many non-believers in the general population will hear those false Christian teachings about morality and, because the speaker sounded so convincing (the hallmark of creationist scholarship is how convincing the claim sounds, not whether it's even true or not), they take him at his word and accept that they can do whatever they damned well want to and they aren't responsible to anybody.
Hello?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by mpb1, posted 04-05-2007 2:14 PM mpb1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by mpb1, posted 04-05-2007 5:50 PM dwise1 has replied

  
mpb1
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 66
From: Texas
Joined: 03-24-2007


Message 77 of 169 (393540)
04-05-2007 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by dwise1
04-05-2007 5:10 PM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
Hi dwise1,
It sounds like you're saying that Christians should STOP teaching that all morality stems from belief in God - and that instead, Christians should teach that morality should stem from morality-based reasoning (or however else you want to define "anything but God").
If I weren't a Christian, I'd probably say, "That makes sense to me," especially knowing that when Christians abandon the faith, it can potentially lead to a hedonistic, self-destructive lifestyle.
But frankly, I DO believe this really IS more of an academic argument than anything - because I don't really believe morality-based reasoning has any REAL power to stop people from doing whatever the hell it is they want to do.
Think about the story you posted of the Christian-turned-atheist in 9th grade. Compare him to the non-Christian kid sitting next to him.
Christian 9th grader says, "I'm a Christian. The Bible says drinking and premarital sex are wrong. Evolution disproves the Bible anyway, so I no longer need to abide by its rules, nor should I have be forced to experience guilt. Therefore I can drink and have premarital sex."
Non-Christian 9th grader says, "I'm not a Christian. The Bible and its rules mean nothing to me. There is nothing stopping me from drinking and having premarital sex, so I may as well indulge in it."
The end result is the same.
Perhaps a certain type of atheist wouldn't care so much about the desires of the flesh. But there's no atheist moral code I'm aware of that says premarital sex or drinking is wrong. So if an atheist wants to indulge in those behaviors, they probably will.
The average atheist probably thinks that adultery is wrong because it violates a marriage partner. But an atheist's moral code probably isn't going to stop him from committing adultery any more than the Christian's moral code (and associated guilt) stops him from committing adultery - since the behavioral statistics between the two groups are about the same.
In principle, even if you were correct - that all humans should base their morality on reason - in the real world, I really don't think it's going to make any difference in lifestyle or behavioral choices.
If someone WANTS to be moral (which is subjective anyway), they will. And if they don't, they won't. To Christians, premarital sex and drunkenness are wrong. To the average atheist, chances are those things are NOT viewed as wrong, although adultery would be seen as wrong, since it hurts another person.
Yes, ALL people should "do what's right" JUST BECAUSE THEY SHOULD.
But in reality, we're all probably going to do what we really WANT to do anyway.
I personally do not believe these kinds of arguments affect behavioral choices much at all.
-
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by dwise1, posted 04-05-2007 5:10 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 04-05-2007 6:03 PM mpb1 has replied
 Message 86 by dwise1, posted 04-05-2007 9:01 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 169 (393546)
04-05-2007 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by mpb1
04-05-2007 5:50 PM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
It sounds like you're saying that Christians should STOP teaching that all morality stems from belief in God - and that instead, Christians should teach that morality should stem from morality-based reasoning (or however else you want to define "anything but God").
As a Christian I would definitely say that Christians should STOP teaching that all morality stems from belief in God.
You give an example:
mpb1 writes:
Christian 9th grader says, "I'm a Christian. The Bible says drinking and premarital sex are wrong. Evolution disproves the Bible anyway, so I no longer need to abide by its rules, nor should I have be forced to experience guilt. Therefore I can drink and have premarital sex."
Non-Christian 9th grader says, "I'm not a Christian. The Bible and its rules mean nothing to me. There is nothing stopping me from drinking and having premarital sex, so I may as well indulge in it."
The problem is that in your story, the Christian 9th Grader was NEVER taught either what the purpose of the Bible really is or what Christianity really is. Had he been taught what the Bible or Christianity were really about, he would not think that Evolution disproves the Bible.
Your second example is equally flawed. The Atheist would not say or think anything like what you describe. Instead, would more likely think "My parents taught me that I should not overindulge or be inconsiderate of others."
The problem is not Atheist Morals but that most Christians are clueless of what Christianity demands.
Edited by jar, : left a word out

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by mpb1, posted 04-05-2007 5:50 PM mpb1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by mpb1, posted 04-05-2007 6:08 PM jar has replied
 Message 82 by GDR, posted 04-05-2007 7:27 PM jar has replied

  
mpb1
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 66
From: Texas
Joined: 03-24-2007


Message 79 of 169 (393548)
04-05-2007 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
04-05-2007 6:03 PM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
jar,
It's about time someone tell you that whatever your beliefs are, they are certainly NOT representative of biblical Christianity. You hold an amalgamation of beliefs that you seem to have cobbled together - to your own liking, and you somehow think you are an arbiter of truth.
I think you're a complete moron.
There I've said it - been wanting to since you began spouting at me in a previous thread.
You don't know your butt from a hole in the wall, and you speak from a perch of delusional omniscience.
-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 04-05-2007 6:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 04-05-2007 6:18 PM mpb1 has not replied
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 04-05-2007 6:37 PM mpb1 has not replied
 Message 84 by AdminPD, posted 04-05-2007 8:01 PM mpb1 has not replied
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 Message 87 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-09-2007 1:46 AM mpb1 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 169 (393552)
04-05-2007 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by mpb1
04-05-2007 6:08 PM


Biblical Christianity?
It's about time someone tell you that whatever your beliefs are, they are certainly NOT representative of biblical Christianity.
No kidding?
Thank you for pointing out what I have been saying for years. Biblical Christianity is a bankrupt perversion of the teaching of Christ.
I am glad you see that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by mpb1, posted 04-05-2007 6:08 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 169 (393557)
04-05-2007 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by mpb1
04-05-2007 6:08 PM


mpb1 writes:
You hold an amalgamation of beliefs that you seem to have cobbled together....
Everybody puts together their own set of beliefs. People who actually think before they believe are more likely to have a solid belief system.
Unfortunately, many professing Christians just swallow what they've been spoon-fed in church, without bothering to chew it. Very bad for the digestion - it leaves you with an ugly lump of dogma.
If you really understood your own beliefs, you could discuss them intelligently instead of relying on childish insults.

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 Message 79 by mpb1, posted 04-05-2007 6:08 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 82 of 169 (393564)
04-05-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
04-05-2007 6:03 PM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
jar writes:
The problem is not Atheist Morals but that most Christians are clueless of what Christianity demands.
I have to admit I'm never quite sure where you stand. Are you able to give me an example of a main line theologian or theologians that would represent your views. For example; I relate to CS Lewis, N.T. Wright and Alister McGrath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 04-05-2007 6:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 04-05-2007 7:35 PM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 169 (393567)
04-05-2007 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by GDR
04-05-2007 7:27 PM


Does this have ANYTHING to do with the topic?
Are you able to give me an example of a main line theologian or theologians that would represent your views.
No, of course not. LOL
TTBOMK not one other person is me, and so they certainly cannot represent my beliefs.
However if you have any question related to the topic "Get Over Your Fear of Atheism", I would be more than happy to try to explain where I stand and why I hold such a position.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by GDR, posted 04-05-2007 7:27 PM GDR has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 84 of 169 (393580)
04-05-2007 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by mpb1
04-05-2007 6:08 PM


Rule Breech
mpb1,
Per the forum guidelines: Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.
Your response to jar is out of line. If you continue these types of posts you will be suspended for 48 hours.
Also per the forum guidelines: Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument.
IOW, don't just tell someone their beliefs aren't Biblical, show them but only if it deals with the topic.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by mpb1, posted 04-05-2007 6:08 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 85 of 169 (393582)
04-05-2007 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by mpb1
04-05-2007 6:08 PM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
It's about time someone tell you that whatever your beliefs are
If you're interested, I once saw jar link to a thread last year on precisely this: Belief Statement - jar

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This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 86 of 169 (393595)
04-05-2007 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by mpb1
04-05-2007 5:50 PM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
It sounds like you're saying that Christians should STOP teaching that all morality stems from belief in God
Well, it is obvious that saying "all morality stems from belief in God" is false. It's not in the least bit true. Every single human society that exists or has ever existed has had morality. Of all those societies, a miniscule fraction has believed in your god, YHWH, and even fewer has believed in your Christ. Morality exists in all human societies regardless of which gods are believed in, if any. Just as a social hierarchy exists, and some kind of political system. Of course, most of those societies's morality differ with other societies' moralities in their details, though they also have many of the same basic concepts; eg, rules concerning marital fidelity, protection of property, murder, codes of conduct, the showing of respect.
So of course "Christians should STOP teaching that all morality stems from belief in God." It's a false teaching, so it should stop.
quote:
EDIT:
Here is a paragraph from my post to which you are responding:
dwise1 writes:
Morality is not just arbitrary rules. It's what enables us to live and work together, to get along with each other, and to take proper care of ourselves and of others. Morality exists because we and our societies exist; morality depends on the existence of God just as much and in the same way as we and the world and everything in it does -- ie, if God exists, then morality was created by God along with everything else in the universe; if God does not exist, then morality still exists and functions the same, just as everything in the universe still exists and functions the same.
Perhaps I need to be more explicit. Morality exists as part of the universe. To one who believes in God the Creator of the Universe, then, yes indeed, God created morality. It's obvious. God also created Dog and everything else. If we determine that God does not exist, does that also mean that Dog does not exist? No, such a conclusion would be sheer idiocy, since we can directly observe that Dog exists. It would just mean that Dog had come about by some other means, such as through natural processes. The same thing with morality; if it is determined that God does not exist, that does not also mean that morality does not exist. We observe directly that morality does indeed exist. We can even observe directly that Christianity and Christian doctrine also do indeed exist and they would continue to exist if we were to determine that God does not exist -- that would only mean that they had come about by some means other than God.
So really concisely, if God created the Universe and everything in it, then God created morality. And if God did not create the Universe nor anything in it (eg, if God does not exist), then the Universe and everything in it came about by some other means, as did morality. In either case, whether God exists or not, the Universe does exist, as morality also does exist.
Did that clear it up for you?
- and that instead, Christians should teach that morality should stem from morality-based reasoning (or however else you want to define "anything but God").
Hmm. Well certainly Christians should incorporate moral reasoning, since they've already tried exclusive teaching of rules-based morality and that clearly doesn't work!
But what's wrong with teaching that morality does exist in all societies? (or does the conflict with some doctrine? Christians certainly have no qualms about claiming that atheists don't have any morality, so do they explicitly teach that about other societies?) And pointing out that different societies have different morals, but God gave you this set of rules that point out which morals are the important ones.
That's consistent with what I said. That morality exists independently of the existence of any gods (at least as independently as the rest of the universe exists -- hint, hint). And that what is dependent on the existence of your god are the rules specifically identified by your religion as being from God. And (very importantly) those rules are not morality itself, but rather they tell you which moral precepts are the important ones and they tell you to follow those moral precepts.
Now, part of that religious teaching should be to examine the particular moral precepts in order to see why they are important. Yes, this starts to get us into moral reasoning. Rather than being given a bunch of disjointed arbitrary rules and being told to obey them and don't even try to understand why, you are learning that this rules are important in and of themselves, gaining some idea and appreciation as to why they are important, and some idea of what the consequences are of obeying them and of not obeying them.
Think. With the rules-based approach, you say that disobeying these rules will lead to God punishing you. After you die. But that's not how morality works. Every one of our actions has an effect, all our acts their consequences. We don't have to wait until after we die to reap the consequences of our acts; we're going to feel them in this life. So what you could teach would be that good behavior will have beneficial effects and bad behavior will cause trouble that we'll experience in this life, and then after you die you also need to answer to God for not following His rules.
What problems do you have with that?
But frankly, I DO believe this really IS more of an academic argument than anything - because I don't really believe morality-based reasoning has any REAL power to stop people from doing whatever the hell it is they want to do.
I already gave you examples from my own life. The two married women who propositioned me and whom I turned down because I had put myself in their husbands' place. I wanted to take them up on their offer, but I couldn't because it wasn't right.
I'm living proof. And I'm not alone.
Now of course, there are many people who do need an external force to keep them in line, fear of punishment to make them behave. I never claimed that there weren't. Nor would it be true to claim that that is the only way that morality can work.
But the issue at hand is more specifically the claim that you keep repeating, that without God we can do whatever we want to. That is an utter false belief. Morality exists, regardless, and the consequences of our actions are very real. So why oppose teaching the truth?
Regarding your two students. The Christian student arrived at his conclusion because he had been taught that false teaching -- and I know that this is taught explicitly -- that morality does not exist without God and so without God he could do whatever he wanted to. The non-Christian student is a different matter. He was raised by his non-Christian parents in whatever their faith system is. Judaic, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Unitarian-Universalist, Humanist, Atheist. Those all teach morality -- yes, even the Humanists and the Atheists. Now if his parents had not bothered to instruct him (and some don't for fear of indoctrinating their kids), he could very well be swayed by what he hears the Christians preach all the time and accept the same false teaching. Remember that I did write in the post to which you just responded (bolding added):
quote:
BTW, it's not just the Christians who lose their faith who are endangered. Nor is it those of us who will take on collateral damage when they self-destruct as their religion has taught them to do. Rather, many non-believers in the general population will hear those false Christian teachings about morality and, because the speaker sounded so convincing (the hallmark of creationist scholarship is how convincing the claim sounds, not whether it's even true or not), they take him at his word and accept that they can do whatever they damned well want to and they aren't responsible to anybody.
So false Christian teachings can ruin both Christians and non-Christians. I already told you that.
But there's no atheist moral code I'm aware of that says premarital sex or drinking is wrong.
Whoever says that it's an atheist moral code? Atheists will normally follow the prevailing moral code of the society, the same as most everybody else. They'll tend to be more enlightened about the morality they practice, but it's essentially the same as everybody else's.
Except, of course, the Christian atheists. They're the ones who still believe the lies they were taught when they were Christians, that atheists have not morals and are free to do whatever they want. And as long as Christianity continues propagating false teachings, it will continue to produce Christian atheists.
(HINT: you should be able to do a forum search on "Christian atheist" to see what it means.)
Teach that which is true. Don't teach that which is false. Where's the problem? It's neither rocket science nor brain surgery.
Edited by dwise1, : added the "EDIT" section

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Doddy, posted 04-09-2007 6:43 AM dwise1 has replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 87 of 169 (394005)
04-09-2007 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by mpb1
04-05-2007 6:08 PM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
You don't know your butt from a hole in the wall, and you speak from a perch of delusional omniscience
I've just read through this thread, thinking alot about how my beliefs have changed over the last five years or so. I've been pondering about how I didn't go to church on Easter Sunday for the first time in my life this morning, although I've certainly been thinking about God most of the day. Instead I slept a bit too late for the early service, had a crummy workout, and had lunch with my girlfriend. Here I sit, while I should be doing homework, listening to Johnny Cash's version of 'Hurt' while I try to offer you some fairly on-topic assistance:
Your fears of atheism, so I pertain to this topic, seem to be based on the fact that so much of your life revolves around this beloved belief system as it is. I, for the longest time, was planning on becoming a Methodist minister. Once on that path, I felt that any deviance would be turning my back on God, and the worldwide congregation.
You must understand that even if you decide that you no longer want to believe in your belief system as you know it, you are still responsible for your actions. If you choose to break chasity(I'm still abstaining, by the way), then it's your responsibility and you will suffer the consequences just the same. In fact, it's even more your responsibility should you no longer believe that Satan had his hand in your decisions.
Take that in for a minute before you swallow this next part: the above paragraph was a bit bifurcating. Just because you change your belief as you know it, doesn't mean you have to become an athiest. It doesn't mean you have to renounce Jesus Christ as your lord and Savior, and it DOES NOT mean you have to withdraw from the life that you know and love, nor does it give you the right to abandon it through amoral actions. It simply means that you have changed your beliefs to some extent, whatever that extent might be. Want to know what's changed in my beliefs from straight Christianity to what it is now? Here it comes:
1.God is not so evil as to send nonbelievers and homosexuals to hell.
(And even when I did believe that, I resented Him for it.)
2.The parting of the Red Sea was probably an exxageration of a nonetheless exiting actual event; same with many other things in the OT.
3.Evolution is the best theory out there regarding how life, once began, became what it is.
4. Metal is so much more Metal than Christian 'Metal'... Skillet just doesn't have the raw power that Pantera does, and they probably never will.
Point of this rambling post? It's wrong to lie, regardless of your beliefs or lack thereof. Don't lie to yourself and the ones you love. That, in itself, would be the first step toward being more ethical in and of yourself. Indeed, the wisdom we obtained from eating that fruit gave us knowledge of good and evil--we know full well what hurts others and what doesn't, and God also gave us the strength to do what is right. I don't believe we lose that strength in leiu of our change in beliefs.
With that in mind, don't you dare lose track of the things in this world that love you. No matter where you go or what you believe, God knows who does and doesn't care.
Edited by One_Charred_Wing, : Had to un-derail my train of thought. I'm still going through another METAL phase, so reason #4 sticks. NYAH!

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Replies to this message:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 88 of 169 (394013)
04-09-2007 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by dwise1
04-05-2007 9:01 PM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
dwise1 writes:
But what's wrong with teaching that morality does exist in all societies? (or does the conflict with some doctrine? Christians certainly have no qualms about claiming that atheists don't have any morality, so do they explicitly teach that about other societies?)
Yes, it does conflict with a piece of scripture.
quote:
Psalm 53:1-3
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Basically, it is against what the Bible teaches to claim that atheists can be moral. This certainly contributes to the 'fear of atheism' that many Christians seem to me to have.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 89 of 169 (394027)
04-09-2007 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Doddy
04-09-2007 6:43 AM


Not About Atheism
quote:
Basically, it is against what the Bible teaches to claim that atheists can be moral. This certainly contributes to the 'fear of atheism' that many Christians seem to me to have.
That's why it is better to understand the reality of the Bible. Original meanings tend to get clouded or lost over time.
Just as the songs we have today express our fears, hopes, dreams, etc.; so did the psalms (songs). IMO, the author of this song was referring to their enemies (more than likely the leaders), not atheists.
Didn't most of the nations that attacked David's kingdom have gods of their own? If they did, then they weren't atheists. Otherwise all Christians would be atheists if they don't believe in another culture's god.
Erroneous teaching can kindle the fear.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 90 of 169 (394036)
04-09-2007 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Doddy
04-09-2007 6:43 AM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
Doddy writes:
Basically, it is against what the Bible teaches to claim that atheists can be moral.
That's not true. God has given all mankind the moral code as Paul clearly point out in this letter to the Romans.
Romans 2:5-16 writes:
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Edited by GDR, : sp

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
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