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Author Topic:   A personal morality
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 196 (393746)
04-06-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
04-06-2007 2:58 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Can you give me an example of something that you can do which would effect GOD?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-06-2007 2:58 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 122 of 196 (393755)
04-06-2007 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by New Cat's Eye
04-06-2007 3:00 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
I never got a chance to reply to your last message to me in the Athiesm Examined thread. Do you want me to write one and slap it up somewhere or just forget about it?
No, if you would like to continue discussing something that's exactly what this place is for
I'm not sure where though, is here on-topic enough? Maybe we should just start a new thread. That one seemed rather popular anyway.

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 Message 120 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-06-2007 3:00 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 123 of 196 (393759)
04-06-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Rob
04-02-2007 11:18 PM


Re: you are correct...
And if life is not meaningful and chaos is the only reality, then what is the difference between Ghengis Khan and Jesus?
I know what you meant by this, but as you present yourself, it would seem the difference is actually minor.
If someone is following Jesus because they fear that he will at some point show up with a sword to punish those who ignore his commands, then the difference between him and Genghis Khan would seem to be one of not type but simply degree of punishment.

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Trae
Member (Idle past 4306 days)
Posts: 442
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 06-18-2004


Message 124 of 196 (393767)
04-06-2007 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
04-06-2007 2:58 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
There are behaviors that my conscience tells me are immoral that I enjoy doing. I try to avoid these behaviors for some of the following reasons:
The affects they have on other people.
The affects they have on me.
The affects they have on God.
Sometimes I avoid the behaviors for all three reasons sometimes for just one.
If I lost my faith and became atheist, the immoral behaviors that I avoid because of their affects on God alone would have no reason to be avoided anymore.
If I became an atheist, I would behave more immorally.
It seems to me you’re trying to do moral math here along the lines of, “If I have one less moral source then I have less overall morals.” This would require that one did not replace one's foundation of God morality with something else. It also precludes your remaining moral foundations not picking up the slack and becoming more complex.

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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 196 (393768)
04-06-2007 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Trae
04-06-2007 9:22 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
It also avoids the point that with no god, there are no actions that affect a god, and so these actions are no longer immoral.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 126 of 196 (393777)
04-06-2007 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
04-06-2007 2:58 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
If I lost my faith and became atheist, the immoral behaviors that I avoid because of their affects on God alone would have no reason to be avoided anymore.
If I became an atheist, I would behave more immorally.
I don`t see how the second frase above follows from the first. Would you care to explain?

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Max Power
Member (Idle past 6006 days)
Posts: 32
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 06-03-2005


Message 127 of 196 (393784)
04-07-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
04-06-2007 2:58 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
The affects they have on God.
If there was a muslim who followed the five pillars religiously and converted to some form of christianity, would that person be less moral for no longer praying 5 times a day and whatnot? How about if that person became an atheist rather than christian?
It seems like the reason for not being an atheist is that it goes against god.

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Replies to this message:
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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 128 of 196 (393840)
04-07-2007 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Max Power
04-07-2007 12:16 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
It seems like the reason for not being an atheist is that it goes against god.
Not even that, because may be god cares more about whether you keep your intellectual integrity then whether you go against him or not.
You cannot hurt god by going against him/her/it/them. He`s god. We are mere mortals.
But you can hurt yourself by going against your own beliefs.
A loving god would know that, and wish you to be yourself, even if that meant you becoming an atheist.

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Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 6123 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 129 of 196 (393906)
04-08-2007 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
04-06-2007 2:58 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Catholic Scientist
There are behaviors that my conscience tells me are immoral that I enjoy doing.
Well, this is basically the point I've been trying to get through. Thank you And think about all those essays I wrote...
I try to avoid these behaviors for some of the following reasons:
The affects they have on other people.
The affects they have on me.
The affects they have on God.
Sometimes I avoid the behaviors for all three reasons sometimes for just one..
Basically the same for me, except the third reason would be " Because of the moral standard that is there".
If I became an atheist, I would behave more immorally.
Almost the same for me again. Just rephrasing it to... " If I knew that morality was subjective and so I wouldn't be any worse of a human for behaving immorally, I would behave more immorally.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 131 by Chiroptera, posted 04-08-2007 11:48 AM Neutralmind has not replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 130 of 196 (393907)
04-08-2007 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Neutralmind
04-08-2007 11:15 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
If I knew that morality was subjective and so I wouldn't be any worse of a human for behaving immorally, I would behave more immorally.
If you knew that morality was subjective, how would what you were doing be immoral?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 196 (393911)
04-08-2007 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Neutralmind
04-08-2007 11:15 AM


An excellent question.
quote:
If I knew that morality was subjective and so I wouldn't be any worse of a human for behaving immorally, I would behave more immorally.
crashfrog asked such a great question that I really think that it cannot be overemphasized.
If morality is subjective and you wouldn't be any worse of a human for behaving in some manner, then what is the problem with behaving in that manner?

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Neutralmind, posted 04-08-2007 11:15 AM Neutralmind has not replied

  
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 6123 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 132 of 196 (393912)
04-08-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by crashfrog
04-08-2007 11:24 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
If you knew that morality was subjective, how would what you were doing be immoral?
In the perspective of there being a morality standard it would But, if morality is subjective then it wouldn't be immoral of course.
I guess my response is a non-answer then, because I have no idea how to get around that question

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 133 of 196 (393913)
04-08-2007 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Neutralmind
04-08-2007 11:15 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Neutralmind
If I knew that morality was subjective and so I wouldn't be any worse of a human for behaving immorally, I would behave more immorally.
But how do you decide which behaviours are immoral and have these
The affects they have on other people.
The affects they have on me.
The affects they have on God.
as guidelines when the first two are subjective and the third ain't giving us his opinion.
Perhaps you might clarify for us which effects you are speaking of?
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 196 (393914)
04-08-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Neutralmind
04-08-2007 11:52 AM


Now this is getting confusing.
I thought your problem in accepting that morality is subjective is that you would then behave immorally.
Your answer in this posts assumes that there is an objective morality. We already know what the problem would be if you behaved immorally while there were an objective morality. I thought your original question was that you were on the verge of accepting that morality is not objective, and you were distressed about the implications if morality was subjective.
Edited by Chiroptera, : possibility -> implication
Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Neutralmind, posted 04-08-2007 11:52 AM Neutralmind has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Neutralmind, posted 04-08-2007 1:02 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 6123 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 135 of 196 (393922)
04-08-2007 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Chiroptera
04-08-2007 11:57 AM


Chiroptera
Your answer in this posts assumes that there is an objective morality. We already know what the problem would be if you behaved immorally while there were an objective morality. I thought your original question was that you were on the verge of accepting that morality is not objective, and you were distressed about the implications if morality was subjective.
And now you're all telling me that if I know there's no objective morality I shouldn't care about learned or my inner moral codes. So as I see it, the problem still is the same. That I don't want to act immorally because my inner morality is telling me something I want to do is immoral and so I won't do it.
But knowing morality is subjective I'm never really doing anything morally "wrong", so I should just ignore that voice inside me ?
Edited by Neutralmind, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Chiroptera, posted 04-08-2007 11:57 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Chiroptera, posted 04-08-2007 1:13 PM Neutralmind has replied
 Message 138 by crashfrog, posted 04-08-2007 1:30 PM Neutralmind has not replied

  
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