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Author Topic:   A personal morality
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 196 (393926)
04-08-2007 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Neutralmind
04-08-2007 1:02 PM


quote:
That I don't want to act immorally because my inner morality is telling me something I want to do is immoral and so I won't do it.
Sure. Then what does it matter whether there is or is not an absolute standard for morality? In fact, as far as I can see, you would be in a bigger quandry if there were an absolute standard since this absolute standard might compel you to do something that your inner voice is trying to tell you is wrong.
-
quote:
But knowing morality is subjective I'm never really doing anything morally "wrong", so I should just ignore that voice inside me ?
Well, that is what you are claiming, isn't it? That if there were no absolute standard, then you would quit listening to this inner voice of yours? At least, that is how I have been intepreting the quandry you have been presenting since the OP.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Neutralmind, posted 04-08-2007 1:02 PM Neutralmind has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Neutralmind, posted 04-08-2007 1:26 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 6124 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 137 of 196 (393929)
04-08-2007 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Chiroptera
04-08-2007 1:13 PM


Well, that is what you are claiming, isn't it? That if there were no absolute standard, then you would quit listening to this inner voice of yours? At least, that is how I have been intepreting the quandry you have been presenting since the OP.
Yes seems so. So, I've been believing in a subjective morality all along? But is that the same as relative?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Chiroptera, posted 04-08-2007 1:13 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Chiroptera, posted 04-08-2007 1:33 PM Neutralmind has not replied
 Message 140 by Chiroptera, posted 04-08-2007 1:40 PM Neutralmind has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 138 of 196 (393932)
04-08-2007 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Neutralmind
04-08-2007 1:02 PM


But knowing morality is subjective I'm never really doing anything morally "wrong", so I should just ignore that voice inside me ?
Didn't we cover this? Subjective morality doesn't mean that nothing's right or wrong. It just means that you can't establish objective, universal guidelines about what will always be right and what will always be wrong, because there's always situations where the right thing to do is erroneously labeled "wrong" by your code.
There's no reason for you to "ignore" any voices if you don't want to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Neutralmind, posted 04-08-2007 1:02 PM Neutralmind has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 196 (393933)
04-08-2007 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Neutralmind
04-08-2007 1:26 PM


quote:
So, I've been believing in a subjective morality all along? But is that the same as relative?
Ugh. I really don't want to play semantic games. If I did, I would have invited Rob to join in.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Neutralmind, posted 04-08-2007 1:26 PM Neutralmind has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 196 (393935)
04-08-2007 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Neutralmind
04-08-2007 1:26 PM


An important question.
By the way, I think that I am going to reask a question that I asked before.
Namely, you seem worried that if morality were subjective you would stop listening to you inner conscience and behave in a way that you would feel is immoral.
But what about the implications of an absolute standard of morality? Why aren't you worried about the conflicts between your inner conscience and this absolute standard, that you might have to choose between behaving in a way that is absolutely immoral or behaving in a way that you feel is immoral?
If you truly are worried about violating your inner conscience, I would think that you would be relieved if morality were subjective.
Edited by Chiroptera, : added subtitle

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Neutralmind, posted 04-08-2007 1:26 PM Neutralmind has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 196 (394023)
04-09-2007 10:08 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
jar writes:
Can you give me an example of something that you can do which would effect GOD?
Well, I don’t think that I can really effect GOD, but I think that some of the things I do can effect Him within me. You know, the whole “my body is a temple” thingy. So, something like drunkenness could have an effect on god, through me, but I don’t think that little ol’ me is really having much of an effect on GOD. Still though, my conscience tells me that heavy intoxication is hurting god too.
So if we take god out of the picture, there is one less reason for me to avoid drunkenness, and I think it would happen more often and I would be more immoral. Assuming that drunkenness is immoral.
Other things that could effect god: idolatry and blasphemy.
But doing those as an atheist wouldn’t really make me more immoral.
Some other people responded with replies that echo the previous line. The things that are immoral only because of their effects on god should no longer be immoral if you’re an atheist.
In order for the immorality to increase after becoming atheist, the acts would have to effect more than just god.
I also have to admit that the threat of punishment persuades me to avoid punishable behaviors. Removing god as one of the sources of punishment will lead to me behaving more immorally.

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 04-09-2007 10:41 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 143 by Stile, posted 04-09-2007 12:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 142 of 196 (394032)
04-09-2007 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by New Cat's Eye
04-09-2007 10:08 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
I'm sorry but what you posted seems totally contradictory and just play with words.
You say:
Well, I don’t think that I can really effect GOD, but I think that some of the things I do can effect Him within me. You know, the whole “my body is a temple” thingy.
Sure I've heard those words before, but have you thought about what they mean?
So, something like drunkenness could have an effect on god, through me, but I don’t think that little ol’ me is really having much of an effect on GOD. Still though, my conscience tells me that heavy intoxication is hurting god too.
How is it hurting God?
You say in the same paragraph that you can not affect God and that you are affecting God.
Some other people responded with replies that echo the previous line. The things that are immoral only because of their effects on god should no longer be immoral if you’re an atheist.
What can you do that will effect God?
I also have to admit that the threat of punishment persuades me to avoid punishable behaviors. Removing god as one of the sources of punishment will lead to me behaving more immorally.
It seems that the heart of the argument from the theists like yourself is that you believe you are incapable of responsible behavior unless such behavior is coerced.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 10:08 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 12:24 PM jar has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 143 of 196 (394040)
04-09-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by New Cat's Eye
04-09-2007 10:08 AM


Effects on God
Catholic Scientist writes:
So if we take god out of the picture, there is one less reason for me to avoid drunkenness, and I think it would happen more often and I would be more immoral. Assuming that drunkenness is immoral.
What you seem to be saying is... you don't so much make any kind of affect/change on God as you do affect/change your relationship with God. Sort of like... you let him down, kind of thing. As in, you could have done better, you know you can do better, and God is disapointed in you in some sort of way? Would that be a correct assessment?
I agree with jar that God remains unaffected, however, that's not the point I want to talk about.
I want to talk about this part:
So if we take god out of the picture, there is one less reason for me to avoid drunkenness
I don't think that's accurate. I mean, I've taken God out of the picture, and there is no "one less reason for me". I've just replaced God in this way. That is, I don't worry about my relationship with God, yet I worry about my relationship with those I love, those I respect, and how I think about myself.
I would also contend that this transfer from God to people is a larger reason than God alone. That is, if I go against a relationship with God, I feel guilty, and bad, all internally. Yet if I go against a relationship with myself or those I love/respect, I feel the same intense level of guilt and internal badness along with having to interact with those people externally. I will have to go to their house and discuss the issues with them and other peers. I will have to deal with seeing them and interacting with them on an everyday, physical basis.
I understand that there are those who believe they act with God on an everyday, physical basis. Yet I can bring you over to meet my friends and family to show their physicality. Obviously this level of objective, physical interaction does not exist with God.
Basically... can you identify some sort of relationship/feeling/thing with God that you think you have that I do not have with myself, my loved ones, and those I respect?
If you can identify that "extra thing" you have with God, then you have identified the "one less moral reason" you would have without God. If you cannot identify it, then without God you lose nothing. ...Sorry, that last sentence is loaded I mean, you lose nothing when we're talking in this God-is-needed-for-morality sense. Obviously there are other things God provides for certain people that I'm not talking about right now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 10:08 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 12:29 PM Stile has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 196 (394043)
04-09-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
04-09-2007 10:41 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
I'm sorry but what you posted seems totally contradictory and just play with words
Yeah, it probably is.
You say in the same paragraph that you can not affect God and that you are affecting God.
The difference is between god and GOD.
I don't think that I can really effect the almighty GOD, but that my actions have an affect on god, as he is in me.
I'll leave it at that. I don't care to get down to the gnat's ass with it.
It seems that the heart of the argument from the theists like yourself is that you believe you are incapable of responsible behavior unless such behavior is coerced.
Yeah, basically. But I wouldn't say incapable, its more like umwilling.
Take god out of this world and.... fuck it, let's party.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 04-09-2007 10:41 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by nator, posted 04-09-2007 1:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 196 (394046)
04-09-2007 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Stile
04-09-2007 12:05 PM


Re: Effects on God
can you identify some sort of relationship/feeling/thing with God that you think you have that I do not have with myself, my loved ones, and those I respect?
No, not really.
If you cannot identify it, then without God you lose nothing
Its not so much about losing something. Its about gaining. I'd gain the freedom to do all the bad things that I would enjoy doing without the threat of punishment. I could just go hog wild, and I just might.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Stile, posted 04-09-2007 12:05 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Stile, posted 04-09-2007 1:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 146 of 196 (394053)
04-09-2007 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by New Cat's Eye
04-09-2007 12:24 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
It seems that the heart of the argument from the theists like yourself is that you believe you are incapable of responsible behavior unless such behavior is coerced.
quote:
Yeah, basically. But I wouldn't say incapable, its more like umwilling.
Take god out of this world and.... fuck it, let's party.
If you really, truly believe that the only reason you wouldn't behave immorally and hurt other people is through fear of punishment from God, then that is a truly frightening thought.
It means that you are basically amoral at heart, without a conscience.
That makes you pretty much a sociopath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 12:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 1:27 PM nator has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 147 of 196 (394054)
04-09-2007 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by New Cat's Eye
04-09-2007 12:29 PM


Re: Effects on God
Catholic Scientist writes:
Its not so much about losing something. Its about gaining. I'd gain the freedom to do all the bad things that I would enjoy doing without the threat of punishment. I could just go hog wild, and I just might.
Gaining the freedom without the threat of punishment.
I started to think about how my "threat of punishment" comes from what I fear my loved ones would think of me, or possibly even stop interacting with me. However, this fear of punishment is very low on the why-I-do-good-things meter when compared to the "because it's the right thing to do" motive.
But then I thought that you may mean the threat of eternal punishment. And, I must admit, that there is no threat of eternal punishment from any of my loved ones. However, if this fear is high on anyone's why-they-do-good-things meter, I would argue that they have deeper problems to worry about. That is, if you don't have any positive reason to do good things, and you are only afraid of a threat of punishment... I would argue that you're really not a very good person to begin with. To me, a fear of punishment is a very immature, and low-level motive for doing good things.
I would also point out that I (personally now, likely not representative of any other atheists) do have a very minor threat of eternal punishment. Not so much of God judging. But more of a possibility of something judging. I mean, I don't really believe in anything being there, but the fact that no one's ever come back from being dead to describe and show us what really happens adds a certain amount of "anything's possible". So I do have a very minor threat of eternal punishment, but I would say it's incredibly low on my why-I-do-good-things meter. Perhaps even the very bottom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 12:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 1:45 PM Stile has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 196 (394059)
04-09-2007 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by nator
04-09-2007 1:04 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
If you really, truly believe that the only reason you wouldn't behave immorally and hurt other people is through fear of punishment from God, then that is a truly frightening thought.
The fear of punishment from God is not the only reason I wouldn't behave immorally and hurt other people. But, it is one of the reasons. If you remove God, then I have one less reason to NOT behave immorally and would be more inclined to do so.
It means that you are basically amoral at heart, without a conscience.
That makes you pretty much a sociopath.
Well, then its a good thing I believe in God, eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by nator, posted 04-09-2007 1:04 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by crashfrog, posted 04-09-2007 1:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 149 of 196 (394060)
04-09-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by New Cat's Eye
04-09-2007 1:27 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
If you remove God, then I have one less reason to NOT behave immorally and would be more inclined to do so.
That doesn't make any sense. If your other reasons are sufficient, then they don't get less sufficient just because one reason has been removed.
If you're wearing a belt and suspenders, then your pants don't fall down just because you take the belt off. The suspenders are still there to hold your pants up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 1:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 1:53 PM crashfrog has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 196 (394062)
04-09-2007 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Stile
04-09-2007 1:05 PM


Re: Effects on God
However, this fear of punishment is very low on the why-I-do-good-things meter when compared to the "because it's the right thing to do" motive.
"Because its the right thing to do" is not the largest reason for why I do good things. Its in there, but a little extra incentive helps in getting the right thing done.
Its easy for someone to say they do the right thing only because its the right thing when they ain't doin' shit. Or when they're deluding themselves because they can't admit they do the right things for selfish reasons.
I suppose people will say that that makes me a bad person. Without God, so what? Fuck 'em. Survival of the fittest. Might makes right. What are you do with the "bad people"? (<--- that)
However, if this fear is high on anyone's why-they-do-good-things meter, I would argue that they have deeper problems to worry about.
These "deeper problems" really have little effect on my day-to-day life. I'm not that worried about them.
That is, if you don't have any positive reason to do good things, and you are only afraid of a threat of punishment... I would argue that you're really not a very good person to begin with.
Believe me, to begin with, I am not a very good person. But in the end, after it all, I find that I am a good person, thank God.
To me, a fear of punishment is a very immature, and low-level motive for doing good things.
Tell me, have you ever held a management position? Ever tried to get employees to be good workers without a fear of punishment? Positive reinforcement can work a little, but when it comes down to it, sometimes you gotta bust out the whip
but the fact that no one's ever come back from being dead to describe and show us what really happens adds a certain amount of "anything's possible".So I do have a very minor threat of eternal punishment, but I would say it's incredibly low on my why-I-do-good-things meter. Perhaps even the very bottom.
That's good for you. If it makes you all warm inside to do the right thing just because it is the right thing, then more power to you.
One could also argue, though, that you're doing the right thing NOT because it is the right thing but because it makes you feel good. Perhaps a selfish reason.
But what if you just don't care? Or what if you don't feel anything extra from doing the right thing? The threat of punishment should put you on the straight and narrow, no?
I don't know why I'm feeling so hostile today, maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the bed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Stile, posted 04-09-2007 1:05 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Stile, posted 04-09-2007 2:51 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 163 by nator, posted 04-09-2007 3:25 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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