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Author Topic:   Christianity, Knowledge and Science
nator
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 211 of 221 (390040)
03-17-2007 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by truthlover
03-17-2007 7:35 PM


Sure, but I don't think that ICANT is talking about infant baptism when he says "born again".
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 221 (390731)
03-21-2007 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by truthlover
03-17-2007 3:40 PM


truthlover

The point was to say that the knowledge of good and evil belongs to God.That's why eating from it made them like God. It wasn't good for that to be so, so they were punished.

I am sorry to say that this seems ludicrous. If it was not good for us to have the knowledge of good and evil, why would God offer it to us?

Indeed, if we do not have a knowledge of Good and Evil, then how can we be punished for not knowing better?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by truthlover, posted 03-17-2007 3:40 PM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by truthlover, posted 03-22-2007 11:55 AM sidelined has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 213 of 221 (390806)
03-22-2007 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by nator
03-17-2007 8:49 PM


Re-Christianity
Sure, but I don't think that ICANT is talking about infant baptism when he says "born again".

You are right but I won't go there as it would lead off topic.

I have read many of the posts and some were quite heated.

I would like to address the question,

Cocytus writes:

Does religion make good people do bad things?

YES Religion makes people do bad things.

Religion killed Jesus.

Religion killed millions during the dark ages.

Religion is killing in many countries today.

That is unless I am wrong and killing is OK.

Cocytus writes:

In this case "bad things" refers to standing in the way of progress.

YES as pertaining to the beginnings, and many things that have followed.

If it takes light from a star a billion (random number) years to reach earth and I say the earth is only 7,000 to 20,000 years old
oh well.

The misunderstanding of the first 5 chapters of Genesis has caused a big mess. It probably was caused by one or many different scribes copying the manuscripts. And making slight changes here and there but I believe the entire story is still there just mixed up.

In Genesis there is an account of a creation and an account of a recreation.

But it is taught as one creation thus the belief of most creationist that the earth is young.

And since most Christianity teaches that the Bible is untainted by man, and is the dictated Word of God it has to be true.

Because of that many false things have been taught as truth and believed by the masses.

Thus we have religion standing in the way of progress on many fronts.

It was pointed out stem cell research was one. All of you who have read my posts know my stand on killing a human being. But if we are going to do so as is allowed by law then why not make use of the fetus's in stem cell research.

But Religion says no.


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truthlover
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 214 of 221 (390862)
03-22-2007 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by sidelined
03-21-2007 6:03 PM


I am sorry to say that this seems ludicrous.

It can only seem ludicrous if you're thinking of it as a real story, as some attempt at accurate history. It is not. It is a story meant to teach a lesson. That lesson was that the knowledge of good and evil was meant for God, not us.

Indeed, if we do not have a knowledge of Good and Evil, then how can we be punished for not knowing better?

God decides good and evil. We are punished for disobeying God. Adam & Eve were not punished for anything else they did, except for not doing the one command God gave them.

I can't say my interpretation is guaranteed to be 100% correct, but I'm nowhere near the only one offering such an interpretation. The story was originally told to get a lesson across. There's not much doubt about that. The lesson seems pretty obvious to me. Good and evil belong to God, not to man. Since man was punished for eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that lesson seems sort of apparent. Since the story was passed down in a society that believed God gave them their laws, it seems also apparent that the job of men, according to the story, is to obey God, not determine good and evil on his own.

This isn't ludicrous. This is a rather on-the-surface, obvious sort of interpretation of the story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by sidelined, posted 03-21-2007 6:03 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by sidelined, posted 03-22-2007 6:02 PM truthlover has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 221 (390950)
03-22-2007 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by truthlover
03-22-2007 11:55 AM


truthlover

God decides good and evil. We are punished for disobeying God. Adam & Eve were not punished for anything else they did, except for not doing the one command God gave them.

That is just it though. Eve was obeying god until the serpent {created by God} came to talk to her. Since God is all knowing, apparently, then why is it necessary to invoke temptation upon her since she, before eating of the fruit, cannot be capable of understanding the act to be wrong?
And since, in the course of a given life, we often run across the need to discern good and evil {or rather relative good and evil} in the moment without the benefit of running it past God first, then it is an impracticality on the part of God to expect such obeisance.
Perhaps God should lay the blame on the guy in the mirror.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by truthlover, posted 03-22-2007 11:55 AM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by ICANT, posted 03-22-2007 8:51 PM sidelined has not yet responded
 Message 217 by CTD, posted 03-23-2007 9:25 AM sidelined has not yet responded
 Message 218 by truthlover, posted 03-23-2007 11:15 AM sidelined has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 216 of 221 (390990)
03-22-2007 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by sidelined
03-22-2007 6:02 PM


Re-Eve
That is just it though. Eve was obeying god until the serpent {created by God} came to talk to her.

Eve was deceived by Satan into eating the fruit.

Adam chose to eat the fruit.

Eve would have died and Adam would have still been in the Garden had he not chose to eat and die with Eve.

cannot be capable of understanding the act to be wrong?

Adam was specifically commanded not to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. I am sure he passed this on to Eve.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
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CTD
Member (Idle past 3974 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 217 of 221 (391043)
03-23-2007 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by sidelined
03-22-2007 6:02 PM


Which mirror?
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 218 of 221 (391055)
03-23-2007 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by sidelined
03-22-2007 6:02 PM


To admin:

I'm thinking your admonition was addressed to ICANT. Since the topic is why knowing good and evil is bad, I'm thinking sidelined and I are on topic. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Since God is all knowing, apparently, then why is it necessary to invoke temptation upon her since she, before eating of the fruit, cannot be capable of understanding the act to be wrong?

It's a story. Personally, I think the serpent is a great addition to the story, and that way there's also an explanation for the rather bizarre way snakes travel.

And since, in the course of a given life, we often run across the need to discern good and evil {or rather relative good and evil} in the moment without the benefit of running it past God first, then it is an impracticality on the part of God to expect such obeisance.

This is a valid question. We don't live in a garden with no one there but animals (where the question of good and evil really wouldn't come up much). We live with a lot of other people in situations that are not ideal, and good and evil come up a lot.

I have two answers:

1. A Hebrew writer--and this story was passed down by the Hebrews--would expect the law to address pretty much all situations of good and evil. It is awful detailed, and that sort of trust in the law is what inspired such sayings as, "It is written..."

2. A Christian would say that we can be led by the Spirit at all times, thus being able to consult God in all situations on the spot. Jesus did say, "I don't do anything except what I see my Father doing." It may not matter, however, how a Christian would see it, because it was originally a Hebrew story and they wouldn't have the same "led by the Spirit" mentality.

3. An allegory cannot be expected to answer every situation. Exceptions do not render the lesson of an allegory invalid. Despite encountering situations where good and evil has not been defined for us, the lesson that good and evil are determined by God, not man, and that moral decisions should be based on God's determinations, remains a valid lesson even when we're faced with situations where we don't know God's determination.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by sidelined, posted 03-22-2007 6:02 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by sidelined, posted 03-26-2007 6:04 PM truthlover has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 221 (391663)
03-26-2007 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by truthlover
03-23-2007 11:15 AM


truthlover

It's a story. Personally, I think the serpent is a great addition to the story, and that way there's also an explanation for the rather bizarre way snakes travel.

Certainly it is a story. God is a part of a story, that does not mean that there is really a God either. The story could just be emphasizing that we are responsible for our choices and cannot be complacent in our innocence with the notion that we are incapable of making wrong choices.

An allegory cannot be expected to answer every situation. Exceptions do not render the lesson of an allegory invalid. Despite encountering situations where good and evil has not been defined for us, the lesson that good and evil are determined by God, not man, and that moral decisions should be based on God's determinations, remains a valid lesson even when we're faced with situations where we don't know God's determination.

I agree about allegory being only so efficient at lessons, however, I cannot see that good and evil are based on God's determinations since we are the only ones that bitch about injustice. We seldom give thought about the nature of the situations that require us to make decisions that, in the moment, are all that we are capable given imperfect information, and as such we cannot be expected to make but imperfect decisions.
A god, on the other hand, by definition having perfect information cannot be expected to be arbiter of justice since there is no situation to which God could claim an injustice as He cannot possibly be surprised by any given situation.{Makes you wonder why he had such a bug up his ass over Sodom and Gomorrah eh?}
Nor can we expect him to have an understanding of the innumerable balancing acts one makes in the course of living a life of limited span and essentially unlimited experience possibilities.


``A paradox is not a conflict within reality. It is a conflict between
reality and your feeling of what reality should be like.''

- Richard Feynman


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by truthlover, posted 03-23-2007 11:15 AM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by truthlover, posted 03-28-2007 9:05 AM sidelined has not yet responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 220 of 221 (391954)
03-28-2007 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by sidelined
03-26-2007 6:04 PM


I may need more coffee before I can answer your post, sidelined. I have no way of knowing if we just disagree a lot, or if I just can't figure out where you're coming from. But let me take a stab at this.

The story could just be emphasizing that we are responsible for our choices and cannot be complacent in our innocence with the notion that we are incapable of making wrong choices.

Ok. That's not what I would get from the story, but I can at least see how you would.

I cannot see that good and evil are based on God's determinations since we are the only ones that bitch about injustice.

Ok, now we're talking about whether the lesson I draw from the story is true, which I have never claimed. Since I do agree with the lesson, however, I will be happy to address this argument.

I think we're supposed to obey God. He gets to choose what's good and evil. I'm not sure how us complaining about injustice invalidates that belief or even has anything to do with it.

We seldom give thought about the nature of the situations that require us to make decisions that, in the moment, are all that we are capable given imperfect information, and as such we cannot be expected to make but imperfect decisions.

Actually, my thought about how a Christian is supposed to live is spiritually. Basically, God's Spirit lives inside of him, and there is a constant attention to what's felt inside. A lot of my day may be moving from one task to another, none of them morally significant or having anything to do with good or evil, but then feel "a check" inside or a feeling that I ought to do this or that. Such things are not to be ignored.

Leaving good and evil to God doesn't have to be interpreted that way, though. Another way to look at it, and one that would be more Hebrew and thus more in line with the original story, is that whenever possible, moral choices should be made in accordance with God's law, whatever rules he's passed on to man. In other situations man is free, no law applies.

A god, on the other hand, by definition having perfect information cannot be expected to be arbiter of justice since there is no situation to which God could claim an injustice as He cannot possibly be surprised by any given situation.

I can't say I even know what you're talking about. This seems bizarre to me, and I don't have an impression of you as bizarre, so I figure I must not be understanding what you're talking about.

Why wouldn't someone with perfect information be able to be an arbiter of justice? In fact, why wouldn't he be the best arbiter of justice? What does this have to do with the knowledge of good and evil? Surely you're saying something I'm completely missing.

Nor can we expect him to have an understanding of the innumerable balancing acts one makes in the course of living a life of limited span and essentially unlimited experience possibilities.

It gets said a lot nowadays that Christians have a narrow view of God and that if there's a real God he'll be much different than the Christian one. I agree with that. I would apply it further, though, and say that if there's a real God he's pretty likely to be far beyond what atheists would imagine him to be, too.

There are all sorts of assertions like this one you're making that I think are way beyond what we could know. If there's a God who could create this universe, as I believe there is, then he most certainly could understand all the problems of mortality. Maybe he's experiencing them through us. Maybe he has some other way of knowing. Maybe there's 11 dimensions, and we have only the faintest view of our 11-dimensional God and he has a thorough view of us. Maybe when I turn around, everything dissolves behind me into a mass of possibilities and probabilities and things are only real while being observed, and God gets to create things moment by moment, learning all the time.

We don't know enough to make some of the assertions we make about God.

In another thread, I read an assertion about God:

If God is able and willing to communicate truth, he's God.

If God is able, but unwilling, he's evil.

If God is unable, but willing, he's impotent.

If God is unable and unwilling, then...(I don't remember what this "then" was)

My answer to all such lines of reasoning about God, is "maybe we don't have a clue what we're talking about and none of our then's follow at all."

I believe in reason and I believe in revelation, but the sort of logic contained in that line of logic and in your suggestion I just quoted seems awful unreliable considering our state of knowledge of the spiritual world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by sidelined, posted 03-26-2007 6:04 PM sidelined has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 221 of 221 (394214)
04-10-2007 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cocytus
01-08-2007 2:44 PM


Re: Need there be an ultimatum?
Cocytus writes:

It's raining outside. You're standing outside in the rain. You go inside to get out of the rain because you might catch a cold.

Dude I being so topic here but is your example above from the description of intelligence and wisdom in the 2nd ed AD&D players handbook?

Just curious.


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