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Author Topic:   Get Over Your Fear of Atheism
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 91 of 169 (394093)
04-09-2007 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Doddy
04-09-2007 6:43 AM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
Well, if you are correct, then obviously the Bible is wrong on this matter in that, by the interpretation you present, it is making a contrary-to-fact statement.
Edited by dwise1, : added italics

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StevieBoy
Junior Member (Idle past 6195 days)
Posts: 13
From: All over the place
Joined: 03-30-2007


Message 92 of 169 (394172)
04-09-2007 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by mpb1
04-01-2007 6:33 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Mark
I came across this thread and felt that I would like to share my story with you. I hope that you are still listening.
All my life I have been purely a believer in science and reasoning. But recently something very strange to me happened. One day I was admiring the architecture of a church and when inside I was all alone and very causally spoke to God. I thought nothing of it. I didn't think anything would change as a result of these words which I considered to be taken with the wind. But from that day things did start to change. Things that made me doubt that I was talking to a brick wall. For the next 8 months I would find myself gradually being swept away by my new faith. But this change didn't come without a great deal of pain, misery and suffering. I doubted my new beliefs every step of the way. One day I was believer the next I was not. For the life of me I didn't know where I was heading. The closer I got the more confused I became. Until one day when I was so upset that something let go inside of me, I let go of my disbelief when I realised that all my life I had been ignoring God. What felt like 30 years of suffering suddenly started pouring out of me in floods. I feel in all the time I had been reasoning God away I was slowely working myself forward. I have never believed in anything so strongly in all my life.
So it disheartens me, having recently found God and fallen in love with God, to hear that someone else is questioning their faith in God himself. I know very little about Christianity, I don't go to church or read the bible but I do know that God came to me with the same love and I can look to God to guide me through the journey of life.
If I hadn't questioned my own faiths I might not have found God in the first place and I wouldn't feel the way I do now. I am certain that you can work through this problem with your friends and family because it is through them that God will help you. It may be a difficult and painful journey but reading what you have written I am confident you will find the courage you need to get through it.
Good luck on your journey.
StevieBoy

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 93 of 169 (394178)
04-10-2007 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by StevieBoy
04-09-2007 11:39 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
I'm sorry if what I am about to say comes across as... heck, I'm sorry if I sound like an asshole, but the lying for jesus award just flashed through my mind.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 94 of 169 (394186)
04-10-2007 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by StevieBoy
04-09-2007 11:39 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Questions:
Does your new faith depend on holding beliefs that are contrary-to-fact? Specifically, we are talking about the claims of "creation science".
Do you support or propose using lies and deception to serve your god? Again, we are talking about the claims and practices of "creation science" and of those congregations and denominations that have incorporated the false theology of "creation science" as an essential part of their doctrine, such that they actively teach that if "creation science" turns out to false (which it is) then the Bible is a lie, Christianity is false, and God does not exist.
Do you believe that if you were to stop believing in God, then you would be free to do whatever you damned well wanted to? Ie, do you believe that atheists have no morals? That morality only exists as your responsibility to obey God's rules?
Those questions are what this thread has been about. Mark suffered his crisis of faith because he discovered that his religion, which was strongly/strictly "creation science", had been lying to him his entire life. In his first or second post in this thread, he posted two URLs of websites that he is creating. He is trying to call Christians' and Christian churches' attention to the grave problems that they are creating by embracing and teaching the lies of "creation science".
BTW, I have come across the testimonials of many ex-Christians and near-ex-Christians who had gone through precisely what Mark was going through. It is an all-to-common event in far too many people's lives.
Now, when faced with the prospect of becoming an atheist, he believed that it meant that he would be free to abandon morality and be able to do whatever he damned well wanted to do. I have argued that that is a false belief; atheists are just as responsible for their actions as Christians are and morality is just as real and binding for them as it is for Christians. I have been pointing out that that belief, which he has expressed repeatedly, is yet another false teaching that Christian churches propagate and that it does even more damage than "creation science" does. In effect, these evangelical and fundamentalist Christian churches are hell-bent on destroying the faith of their followers -- as well as to keep many people away from Christianity -- and then, once their faith has been destroyed, they are then intent on destroying those individuals by teaching them to self-destruct through a new life of self-destructive hedonism.
Even though he had faced that prospect himself, Mark continues to cling to that false teaching about morality; I do not understand why.
So, where do you stand?

This message is a reply to:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 95 of 169 (394190)
04-10-2007 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mpb1
04-01-2007 5:48 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Here's the big mistake that Christians always make when they talk about evolution and atheism.
You don't have to be both.
Evolution does not require atheism. Evolution simply contradicts blind fundamentalism.
Just because you've come to realize that the people preaching YEC are full of it, doesn't mean that you need to completely give up on your spirituality.
As an atheist myself, I'll say this - I don't care if others become an atheist. All I want is for people to leave behind blind following of dogma.
Think for yourself. If you look at all the facts and say, "Yes, Evolution happened and I think God is the one the set up the system." I don't think many of the people on the "atheist team" are going to fight you on it.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 96 of 169 (394191)
04-10-2007 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by StevieBoy
04-09-2007 11:39 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Absolutely nothing wrong with your being a believer in science and reason AND being swept up in feelings of religeous faith.
So long as your new found relationship with God doesn't require you accept on "faith" something which you know to not be true. (ie The Flood really happened!).
There are plenty of scientists all over the world who are logical, reasonable and religeous.

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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 97 of 169 (394195)
04-10-2007 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by StevieBoy
04-09-2007 11:39 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Stevie writes:
Until one day when I was so upset that something let go inside of me, I let go of my disbelief when I realised that all my life I had been ignoring God.
Many new Christians say EXACTLY the same thing and what strikes me is that they all "find God" instead of dealing directly with what was upsetting them in the first place.
To me, your new faith sounds more like an excuse than a solution.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 98 of 169 (394264)
04-10-2007 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Nuggin
04-10-2007 2:24 AM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
In response to your proposed topic, "Morality or else!", that does demonstrate that fundamentalist ministers do indeed preach and teach what Mark had expressed fear of, that atheists have no morals and are free to do whatever they damned well want to.
quote:
Where do you get your morality? If there is no God, if I am simply complicated ooze, then the truth is, your life doesn't matter, my life doesn't matter...If like is just a random chance, then nothing really does matter and there is no morality - it's survival of the fitest. If survival of the fittest means me killing you to survive, so be it.
(Rick Warren, Saddleback Church, Newsweek, 09 Apr 2007)
Of course, as atheists we know that's yet another false teaching. As I point out in this thread, all human societies have morality regardless of belief or disbelief in any of the gods. Indeed, all human societies need morality in order to function at all. We observe it to exist just as we observe anything else in the universe to exist -- if someone wishes to quibble that it's an intangible, then so is language, abstract thought, and social/political systems. For anyone to claim that morality would magically go away simply because we stopped believing in one particular version of one particular god (yet language, et al., would not) is idiotic, ludicrous, ridiculous, and just plain false. And yet we see that they do indeed teach that.
That teaching does immeasurable harm when Christians do lose their faith because of the other lies they are taught (both the lies of "creation science" and the false teaching that if "creation science" is false, which it is, that they are required to abandon their faith and become hedonistic atheists who lack any morals), since it instructs them to launch themselves into a short life of self-destructive hedonism. They have no idea what atheists are nor what atheism is because they're just taught a false stereotype that's to serve more as a boogyman than anything else. And it so scared Mark that he consciously chose self-deception over becoming an atheist: "I considered the possibility of becoming an atheist, and realized I'd rather be a (potentially) self-deluded follower of Christ, than to walk away from the faith." (as quoted by crashfrog).
They lie about science and the real world. They lie about morality. They lie about atheism. And they describe themselves as serving the Truth?
BTW, if you think Rick Warren's extreme, you should see some of the other gems down here in Orange County. I have several friends at Saddleback and they shake their heads in disbelief and disgust at how highly dogmatic the followers of Chuck Smith are. Indeed, many fundamentalists denounce Rick Warren for being far too liberal and "unbiblical". I once stumbled upon a Christian forum in which they are loudly denouncing Rick Warren. What was his terrible crime? Allowing his singles ministry (where my friends are) to hold a dance.
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

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One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 99 of 169 (394270)
04-10-2007 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by RickJB
04-10-2007 3:24 AM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
RickJB writes:
Many new Christians say EXACTLY the same thing and what strikes me is that they all "find God" instead of dealing directly with what was upsetting them in the first place.
Finding God and solving the problem can sometimes be synonymous. Alchoholics and chronic drug users can sometimes find their spiritual calling, and with it the strength to get over their addictions.
Granted, this is not always the case. Office Space, which I just watched for the first time last week, gives a pretty clear cut exception to that rule.
Just, please bear in mind that 'finding God' doesn't always entail running from your problems.

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mpb1
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 66
From: Texas
Joined: 03-24-2007


Message 100 of 169 (394374)
04-10-2007 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by dwise1
04-10-2007 3:27 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Hey dwise1,
Since you brought this issue up and argued a good case for your perspective, I've been giving it some thought...
I agree that it is just plain stupid for Christians (like myself) to think there are only two basic options in life: a.) to continue being a Christian, or b.) to become a hedonist.
It's true that I essentially expressed this sentiment. But I wanted to clarify further and then explain why I think we Christians continue believing that God is the author of morality.
First off, when I said I feared that if I gave up on my faith, I might become a hedonist, it should be noted that I (and many other Christians) practically see "the rest of the world" (in America, at least) as being just that - hedonists. So I probably should have said I feared that if I gave up on my faith, I would lose my biblical moral code, and then I would "LIVE LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD."
Conservative Christians often see the world from the perspective of "us" and "them," a belief that is clearly derived from the Bible. Christians are NOT supposed to live like the world. We are supposed to obey God's Word and abstain from many behaviors (sins) that are acceptable in the eyes of the world.
So for atheists to hear a Christian say, "If I lost my faith, I might become a hedonist," I think an atheist reads a lot more into that THAN IS INTENDED. Hedonism may be thought to include unrestrained sexuality, substance abuse, and perhaps even violent or criminal behavior. Though I said I feared I could become a hedonist (if I gave up on my faith), I personally can't stand the taste of alcohol (any variety) and I have a healthy fear of illicit drugs. So that "almost" (though I realize not completely) removes the element of "self-destructive" from the mild brand of "hedonism" I was referring to.
My reference to a fear of hedonism was essentially a reference to the loosening of my moral code to "allow" for pre-marital or extra-marital sex. My 13-year marriage has been a rocky one, and my wife and I have often stayed together for God and/or the kids. If I had become an atheist, then a big barrier - God's commands regarding sexuality - would have been removed from my life, one that currently stops me from "causing" my family to unravel. If I became an atheist, I could potentially give up on my marriage, divorce, and perhaps have pre-marital or extra-marital sex. And I believe that any of these actions would negatively affect my children, as well as my wife.
I acknowledge - as it has been said here - that "good" atheists would not want to cheat on their wives because it is wrong to harm another person or violate their trust, etc. BUT it is true that for Christians, who believe they HAVE a "guidebook from God" on HOW to live, that the guidebook and our faith DOES provide a moral fence for us, when we attempt to follow it.
Now, as to the question of whether or not Christians are proclaiming a "false teaching" in asserting that all morality comes from God (or the Bible), here is the reason I disagree:
The FACT that atheists and people of other cultures who don't have the Bible STILL have a moral code DOES NOT DISPROVE the Christian view that morality comes from God - BECAUSE the Bible teaches that GOD is the one who has given all humanity a conscience.
Romans 2:14-16 says:
"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." (NAS)
The Scripture above agrees with one of your original points - that all human beings have moral reasoning.
The only difference is that Christians BELIEVE this "moral reasoning" or conscience COMES FROM GOD - because He said it did.
So if you want to argue against the teaching of Scripture, feel free. But to accuse Christians of continuing to proclaim a "false teaching" makes no sense, when the teaching is BASED ON SCRIPTURE, and when science can make no provable claim as to WHERE the HUMAN CONSCIENCE actually came from.
Christians say the human conscience came from God - a belief that is based upon Scripture.
Atheists say the human conscience is a result of evolution.
Neither BELIEF is scientifically provable or disprovable. So this argument, along with so many others, is really just another fundamental disagreement between Christianity and atheism, where we must agree to disagree.
Therefore, I believe THIS ARGUMENT is not at all on par with "young-earth creationism," which IS scientifically DISPROVABLE.
If atheists want to call the BELIEF that morality comes from God a FALSE BELIEF, they should do so on only one basis: THEIR BELIEF that there is no God and that the Bible is not the work of a supreme being. Period.
-
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.

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One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 101 of 169 (394378)
04-10-2007 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by mpb1
04-10-2007 8:32 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Hello, mpb1.
My reference to a fear of hedonism was essentially a reference to the loosening of my moral code to "allow" for pre-marital or extra-marital sex. My 13-year marriage has been a rocky one, and my wife and I have often stayed together for God and/or the kids. If I had become an atheist, then a big barrier - God's commands regarding sexuality - would have been removed from my life, one that currently stops me from "causing" my family to unravel. If I became an atheist, I could potentially give up on my marriage, divorce, and perhaps have pre-marital or extra-marital sex. And I believe that any of these actions would negatively affect my children, as well as my wife.
I'm sorry to hear about the tough times, really. I'm not encouraging you to keep nor denounce your faith in this post, but regardless of whether or not you hold certain beliefs, you are certainly capable of performing these immoral acts. You clearly have a strong connection with God if that's a big part of the reason you're holding back. However, in the unfortunate event that you decide your faith is no longer reflecting what you believe, surely the love of your children and your concern for their well-being would be considered?
God or no god, you know full well that extramarital sex is wrong. As an adult, husband, and father, no lack of belief relieves you of this much moral responsibility.
The FACT that atheists and people of other cultures who don't have the Bible STILL have a moral code DOES NOT DISPROVE the Christian view that morality comes from God - BECAUSE the Bible teaches that GOD is the one who has given all humanity a conscience.
I actually agree with this statement; no one of clear conscience will fight you on it. Honestly, because you can't prove nor disprove through science whether or not God is the origin of morality, it comes down to faith. Don't listen to anyone who disagrees with that much.
You make a much more reasonable arguement in this post for the most part, I must say. Always remember that even if the Bible implies an 'us vs. them' mentality, it has no beef with tolerance.
Blessings to you in your spiritual undertakings here and abroad.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 102 of 169 (394382)
04-10-2007 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by mpb1
04-10-2007 8:32 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
quote:
First off, when I said I feared that if I gave up on my faith, I might become a hedonist, it should be noted that I (and many other Christians) practically see "the rest of the world" (in America, at least) as being just that - hedonists.
LOL!
How many athiests and agnostics do you personally know?
Upon what evidence do you base your claim that everybody else in the US behaves immorally except for people of your religion?
You DO know that strict Christians have the highest rates of divorce, don't you (and that Atheists and Agnostics have the lowest)? And the sexism of conservative Christianity is well-known, along with it's ill-treatment of people of color and homosexuals. It's anti-intellectual attitudes, and fear of science and progress are legend, as well.
I know not every conservative Christian is sexist, racist, homophobic, and are anti-science and anti-learning, but a lot of them are. Certainly more so than the general US population.
I mean, Ted Haggard, the leader and moral example to the congregation of one of the most powerful Conservative Christian churches in America, was getting high on crystal meth and having sex with a gay prostitute.
None of my Atheist friends have ever done that, nor any of the other morally-reprehensible things we seem to hear about these Conservative christians doing. Buying child porn, anally raping their narcoleptic wives, embezzeling money from their churches, calling for the assasination of world leaders, supporting bruutal dictators to protect their own business interests, etc. etc. etc.
quote:
So I probably should have said I feared that if I gave up on my faith, I would lose my biblical moral code, and then I would "LIVE LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD."
In many cases "living like the rest of the world" would be an improvement of the morals of the Conservative Christian.
quote:
My reference to a fear of hedonism was essentially a reference to the loosening of my moral code to "allow" for pre-marital or extra-marital sex. My 13-year marriage has been a rocky one, and my wife and I have often stayed together for God and/or the kids. If I had become an atheist, then a big barrier - God's commands regarding sexuality - would have been removed from my life, one that currently stops me from "causing" my family to unravel. If I became an atheist, I could potentially give up on my marriage, divorce, and perhaps have pre-marital or extra-marital sex. And I believe that any of these actions would negatively affect my children, as well as my wife.
I am going to tell you one of the most profound things I ever learned about marriage.
Any marriage that you don't believe you have the choice to leave isn't a healthy marriage. It's a prison.
But anyway, if you think you would hurt your wife and children by being unfaithful, then why would you do it?
Fear of being punished by God is a pretty empty reason to not hurt your family, if you ask me.
quote:
Christians say the human conscience came from God - a belief that is based upon Scripture.
Atheists say the human conscience is a result of evolution.
Neither BELIEF is scientifically provable or disprovable.
Actually, we are quite confident that the human conscience is brain-based. IOW, biological.
Nearly 20 years ago, neurologist Antonio Damasio conducted studies to test that very concept.
His work was done with people with damage to the ventromedial prefrontal cortex part of their brains. These people become sociopaths, unable to feel remorse for their actions, nor sympathise with others. Brain scans of people diagnosed with sociopathy (who were born that way, not brain-damaged from trauma) show differences in that same part of their brains compared to non-sociopaths, as well.
Everything else about us has evolved, so why couldn't our brains, including our conscience, have evolved?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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StevieBoy
Junior Member (Idle past 6195 days)
Posts: 13
From: All over the place
Joined: 03-30-2007


Message 103 of 169 (394420)
04-11-2007 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by dwise1
04-10-2007 1:12 AM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
I will tell you a bit more about my story in view of creation science.
A friend of mine one day shocked me by stating that she didn't like the way science books presented their theories as fact. This was my first encounter with a creationist and I was outraged. I argued against her words in my mind. "Its a damn book about science, what does she expect?". "Isn't it trying to present a scientific theory and not fact?" "Do Christians have the authority to question science?". She is entitled to her view but I couldn't help feeling that something was wrong with her perspective.
That was several months before I candidly spoke to God. Ironically it was my curiosity in what I still consider to be false belief that led me to God. So I actually have my friend to thank for that.
We cannot fully understand the world around us or our believes in its origins. We can continue to gain knowledge and grow as human beings but for the most part we must accept that we live in the world of not knowing.
That is important because if we are not comfortable living with the possibility that our beliefs may not be true or represent reality, then we will try to present Gods word, or the bible, or sciences, or simple facts, anything we can damn well get our hands on, to impress upon others our own personal beliefs. Many do this. But to what effect? So that we feel a little less lonely? It seems to me that creation scientists are leading the crusade against the world in the name of Jesus.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 104 of 169 (394426)
04-11-2007 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by mpb1
04-01-2007 7:54 PM


Re: That's not good
where does it say that? that we will be judged by the amount of light we have? i've never heard that. please show more than one source.

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 105 of 169 (394429)
04-11-2007 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by crashfrog
04-03-2007 12:58 AM


Re: Several Key Points
Actually I can, as it turns out. Our beliefs are qualitatively different. And you can't exactly say that America is a hostile environment for Christians, you know.
maybe not, but you sure are (a hostile environment).
This doesn't make any sense. To claim that God exists is to make an objective, verifiable claim. It's incoherent to suggest that God is nonexistent for me but exists for you. One or the other of us must be mistaken; there's no way we can both be right. We live in the same universe, after all. Either God exists or he doesn't, for both of us.
yes, but your claim to this ultimate knowledge is baseless. there's no reason why you should have this ultimate knowledge when someone else doesn't. you can't generalize your assumptions any more than a christian can.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

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