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Author Topic:   Get Over Your Fear of Atheism
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 106 of 169 (394430)
04-11-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Larni
04-03-2007 3:41 AM


Re: Science and Faith in Harmony
So how is xianity different from any other religion?
it is only different based on theology. but even that isn't consistent.
You are quite happy to be an atheist about the myriad other religions out there.
not necessarily. i call myself a christian because i think it's ridiculous to change my title just because how i name what i've known all along has changed. reality hasn't changed, only my set of definitions.
i'm tired of this argument. i just had to say something about it.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 107 of 169 (394433)
04-11-2007 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Fosdick
04-03-2007 7:32 PM


Re: Several Key Points
reasoning and reasonable are not the same thing just because they share the same root.
and gravitation has nothing to do with faith.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 108 of 169 (394434)
04-11-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by One_Charred_Wing
04-09-2007 1:46 AM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
2.The parting of the Red Sea was probably an exxageration of a nonetheless exiting actual event; same with many other things in the OT.
that would be great and i'd be talking about thera (santorini) if there was any evidence whatsoever that the jews were ever in egypt. it is clearly a story made up to encourage the jews who were in exile in babylon. maybe no one can find the ark of the covenant because it never existed.
i stopped going to church when i went on easter sunday 2004 and was told what a horrible sinner i was in a sermon about how thomas was an evil idiot for demanding evidence. it's a biblically insupportable position. but suddenly even presbyterians were insane.

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 109 of 169 (394435)
04-11-2007 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Doddy
04-09-2007 6:43 AM


Re: It's not in the least bit a "pointless exercise".
this seems to tell me that christians aren't moral either. if none are moral, that doesn't leave people out just because they have the rulebook and know what they're doing wrong.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 110 of 169 (394436)
04-11-2007 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by nator
04-10-2007 9:52 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
human conscience being biological does not preclude it's inclusion by a creative god. human conscience being biological gives more credence to this than human conscience being socially enforced as it's really rather silly to think that god aurally conferred it to all men.

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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 111 of 169 (394437)
04-11-2007 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by mpb1
04-10-2007 8:32 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
My reference to a fear of hedonism was essentially a reference to the loosening of my moral code to "allow" for pre-marital or extra-marital sex. My 13-year marriage has been a rocky one, and my wife and I have often stayed together for God and/or the kids. If I had become an atheist, then a big barrier - God's commands regarding sexuality - would have been removed from my life, one that currently stops me from "causing" my family to unravel. If I became an atheist, I could potentially give up on my marriage, divorce, and perhaps have pre-marital or extra-marital sex. And I believe that any of these actions would negatively affect my children, as well as my wife.
i would suggest that you seek intensive counseling. chances are, you could be causing more damage to your children than a divorce would. i don't want to encourage you to jump the shark, but i want you to think more seriously about your issues. i think that its entirely possible for almost anyone to be in a healthy relationship with almost anyone else. you just have to be willing to work together. staying together for god and kids is a terrible idea. working your issues out so that this lifetime vow that you have made doesn't drive you to blow your brains out and destroy your kids is.

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mpb1
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 66
From: Texas
Joined: 03-24-2007


Message 112 of 169 (394438)
04-11-2007 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by macaroniandcheese
04-11-2007 11:53 AM


Degrees of accountability before God
To the question about my statement regarding the belief that individuals will be judged by the amount of (Gospel) light they received, here are some passages that address the issue.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
[Story context: After Jesus healed the blind man]
Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him. And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."
Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains."
- JOHN 9:35-41 (NAS)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
"Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
"But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.
"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin."
- JOHN 15:18-22 (NAS)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT IN HELL
"There are two factors to consider. First, we must weigh Jesus’ words. There are two gospel passages that hint at degrees of severity in judgement.
The first is Matthew 11:20-24. At the climax of his denouncing of the cities of Korazin and Bethsaida for their lack of repentance and unbelief, Jesus says, “I tell you it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you” (11:22).
Similarly, Capernaum’s unbelief is compared with that of Sodom, and at the day of judgement, it is Sodom that will fare better (11:24).
Jesus says Gentile cities”even notoriously evil Gentile cities”will be judged less harshly because they did not have the opportunities to repent and believe as those in which Jesus ministered.
Likewise, when speaking of watchful servants in Luke 12:42-49, Jesus contrasts two kinds of servants”those who knew the master’s will and disobeyed it and those who, while their conduct was no better, did not. The latter group, says Jesus, will be “beaten with few blows” (Luke 12:48) while the former will suffer “many blows” (Luke 12:47). In both instances, Jesus ties punishment to the level of truth received and rejected. Those who know more are more accountable."
- Tim Perry, Faith Today Error 404
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Here's an article, "Concerning Those Who Have Never Heard" Page not found - North American Mission Board
with more information on the topic.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
And here's a Scripture indicating that Christians who presume to be teachers will be judged more harshly...
"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such, we will incur a stricter judgment."
- JAMES 3:1
Note: The Bible teaches there will be two different JUDGMENTS - one for those who have not trusted in Christ for salvation, and one for those who have.
-
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-11-2007 11:53 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 113 of 169 (394440)
04-11-2007 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by mpb1
04-11-2007 1:34 PM


Re: Degrees of accountability before God
oh see. i thought you meant something else entirely.
let's take this to a new thread. i have more questions.

This message is a reply to:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 114 of 169 (394448)
04-11-2007 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by mpb1
04-10-2007 8:32 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
The problem with your whole post is that you are putting in a source that's not needed.
For simplicity I'm going to reduce your argument to something silly so that you can more easily distill what I am saying.
Athetists believe that cookies come from cookie dough and that they are made in the oven.
Fundamentalists believe that cookies come from cookie dough but that they are imbued with magical cookie goodness from God while they are in the oven.
Further, Fundamentalists claim that Atheists can't disprove that God imbues cookies with magical goodness regardless of their believe or disbelief in him.
You are correct, we can't disprove God's magical goodness that he imbues in cookies. But that doesn't make the act real.
Just because you have a cookbook from two thousand years ago that says "God imbues cookies" doesn't make it so.
If you want to buy into the "God does magic stuff without us knowing it" thing, that's fine. But you can't just pick and choose where God does his magical stuff.
God makes homosexuals through his magic gay-a-fying ray gun.
God causes priests to perform acts of child abuse because that is pleasing to him.
God causes all cancers which strike down young children, because God hates children.
You can't disprove any of those statements, therefore they must be true.

This message is a reply to:
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mpb1
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 66
From: Texas
Joined: 03-24-2007


Message 115 of 169 (394452)
04-11-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Nuggin
04-11-2007 2:26 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Nuggin,
The point of my argument was not to debate Christianity vs. atheism.
My argument was a response to the accusation that Christians are willfully promoting a false teaching equal to young-earth creationism - the belief that all morality comes from God or the Bible.
I pointed out that the Bible teaches that all humans have a conscience, innately knowing good from evil.
Christians believe the Bible, and therefore believe the human conscience comes from God.
Atheists believe God does not exist.
Either proposition must be accepted by faith, since we do not possess the infinite knowledge required to know if either is true.
----------------------------------------------
One thing I've begun to realize is that when you really consider how long ago the Bible was written, it is no surprise that there would be so many skeptics, especially since we have no concrete evidence in modern times that the Bible was supernaturally inspired (except the fulfillment of biblical prophecies).
Only a generation or two after the fact, people seem to begin doubting whether major events really happened at all. Some are beginning to doubt the Holocaust, and that was just in the last century.
In an age of DNA testing, televised trials, and the ability to know things almost beyond the shadow of a doubt, it is no surprise at all that people would have enormous doubts as to the veracity of a book written thousands of years ago.
100 years after the fact few people would believe that a person actually rose from the dead. So it is a wonder that anyone believes Jesus rose from the dead 2,000 years after the fact.
Christians would say this is evidence of the supernatural, and atheists would say this is evidence that there are lot of gullible people.
Jesus himself knew there would be doubters, when he said, "...However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"
In Luke 21, when Jesus was talking about His return, they asked,
"When will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"
He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them. When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."
Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
"But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you..."
And Paul certainly knew what was coming, when he said:
"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God ” having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them."
-----------------------------------------------
The debate between Christianity and atheism will never end. Some choose to believe the Bible and some don't. I certainly didn't expect to settle that debate
-

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 116 of 169 (394454)
04-11-2007 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by mpb1
04-11-2007 2:57 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
mpb1 writes:
Either proposition must be accepted by faith, since we do not possess the infinite knowledge required to know if either is true.
That's the fundamental error in your thinking: It doesn't take faith to not believe.
Atheists, by definition, have no faith in God. No faith in (X) is not the same as faith in (not X).

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 117 of 169 (394463)
04-11-2007 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by mpb1
04-11-2007 2:57 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
Real short, because I'm busy preparing for a code review right after lunch.
My argument was a response to the accusation that Christians are willfully promoting a false teaching equal to young-earth creationism - the belief that all morality comes from God or the Bible.
Not what I've been saying.
The belief I've been refering to is the belief that morality only has meaning and should be practiced if you believe that God exists, and that as soon as you no longer believe that God exists then you are released from any and all moral obligation and may do whatever you want with no limitations. That is the false teaching I've been refering to.
And while Christians do indeed preach that false teaching wilfully and zealously, that does not necessarily mean that they realize that it is false. I'm sure that they themselves believe that it is true. But that does not negate the fact that it is not true, that it is indeed a false teaching.
I've noticed in an earlier post that you paint the issue as being whether or not God created morality. That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not morality has an essential purpose in any human society, whether it would exist and need to be followed even if God does not exist. Obviously, if God the Creator exists, then God created morality along with the rest of the universe. And if that god does not exist then morality originated by the same means as the rest of the universe, along with dogs and language and everything.
There is no problem with believers in God the Creator teaching that God created morality. The problem arises when they teach that if you stop believing in God then you must abandon morality and are free to misbehave to any extent you can imagine.
I don't know. Is that still not clear?
Either proposition must be accepted by faith, since we do not possess the infinite knowledge required to know if either is true
Really running out of time now.
The only honest position is agnostic: we simply do not know. From there, you have to operate on assumptions.
Christians assume that a detailed construction of what the supernatural is and how it operates is true and so they proceed from there.
Atheists say that such assumptions are unwarranted and cannot be trusted. And so they do not tread down that path.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by mpb1, posted 04-11-2007 2:57 PM mpb1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by mpb1, posted 04-11-2007 4:20 PM dwise1 has replied

  
mpb1
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 66
From: Texas
Joined: 03-24-2007


Message 118 of 169 (394464)
04-11-2007 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by dwise1
04-11-2007 4:01 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
dwise1,
You said:
"The belief I've been referring to is the belief that morality only has meaning and should be practiced if you believe that God exists, and that as soon as you no longer believe that God exists then you are released from any and all moral obligation and may do whatever you want with no limitations. That is the false teaching I've been referring to."
Christians may speak philosophically, in saying that if a person is not a Christian, then they have no basis for morality - as you've apparently heard some Christians saying.
You said in earlier posts that Christians who are concerned with truth should expose this teaching as erroneous, and I argued that it was essentially an academic argument, with little if any consequence in real life.
Then you argued that it was still a false teaching that should be corrected...
I guess we're going in circles.
I don't view this issue as having any real consequence. If some Christians speak philosophically in saying that non-Christians have no basis for morality, they are doing so knowing full well that the Bible teaches we all have a conscience.
So it seems this "Christian concept" could be taken however a person wants to take it.
Obviously, the Christians espousing the view are not encouraging non-Christians to live like hell. They are merely saying that non-Christians are not recognizing or adhering to the "moral creed" of the Bible - our basis for morality.
I addressed the issue because you seemed convinced that it was an erroneous Christian teaching that needed exposing and correction.
But what could a Christian really say?
"Hey you Christians out there, stop saying that all morality is based in Christianity alone. Atheists can be moral too, and if you Christians ever give up the faith, you better remember that! If you become an atheist, you should keep your morals - since we all have a conscience anyway, and you shouldn't stop living good just because you no longer believe in the Bible. That would be wrong! So follow your moral reasoning, and be good, damn it."
Okay, guess I've said it, and it accomplishes nothing.
Now we can move on...
-
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by dwise1, posted 04-11-2007 4:01 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by dwise1, posted 04-11-2007 5:35 PM mpb1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 119 of 169 (394475)
04-11-2007 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by mpb1
04-11-2007 4:20 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
dwise1,
You said:
"The belief I've been referring to is the belief that morality only has meaning and should be practiced if you believe that God exists, and that as soon as you no longer believe that God exists then you are released from any and all moral obligation and may do whatever you want with no limitations. That is the false teaching I've been referring to."
Christians may speak philosophically, in saying that if a person is not a Christian, then they have no basis for morality - as you've apparently heard some Christians saying.
You said in earlier posts that Christians who are concerned with truth should expose this teaching as erroneous, and I argued that it was essentially an academic argument, with little if any consequence in real life.
Uh, no. It is abundantly clear that that is not "essentially an academic argument, with little if any consequence in real life." It is instructing Christians to take a tragically wrong and destructive path when they lose their faith. How could you possibly say in any degree of seriousness that that would have "little if any consequence in real life." You are instructing them to do evil! That is no mere academic argument, but rather booby-trapping them to fail utterly. If Christians were instructing their followers thus with full knowledge of what they were doing, then their actions would rightfully be deemed monstrous. You yourself were faced with the effects of that teaching.
I was wanting to add to my last quick post in the section about agnosticism being the only truly honest position, in the paragraph about atheists deeming theists' massive leap of faith (ie buying into an elaborately detailed theology which has no basis outside of their being told that it's so) to be unwarranted:
And then when the Christian camp comes out with outrageously wrong and false teachings (eg, "creation science"), AKA "howlers", then the atheists know that they had made the right decision to not make that leap.
Mark, that teaching that atheists have no morals and that a Christian who loses his faith must also abandon morality. That is a howler. That is one of those things that comes out of Christians' mouths that make the rest of us drop our jaws (in astonishment that someone would actually believe such nonsense) and that makes us wonder about you. And make us oh so glad that we are not of like mind.
I keep feeling that same reaction when I try to explain this to you as clearly as possible and yet you keep not understanding it. Misinforming and misleading people on a massive scale is not mere academics. Destroying lives is not of little or no consequence. How can you keep saying that it is?
Obviously, the Christians espousing the view are not encouraging non-Christians to live like hell. They are merely saying that non-Christians are not recognizing or adhering to the "moral creed" of the Bible - our basis for morality.
Blatantly false. You yourself expressed the fear that as an atheist you would be free to do whatever you wanted. Baptist minister Rick Warren, as quoted in another thread which quote I repeated in this thread, explicitly said that his atheist debate opponent should be free to kill him, because he had no moral basis not to.
Mark, is morality important? Why is it important? The real, honest reason why it is important. To everybody. Not just to Christians, but to atheists, to Jews, Hindus, Muslims, mainstream Christians (who are not of your world). Why is morality really important? And what reason does Christianity have for not teaching about it?
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by mpb1, posted 04-11-2007 4:20 PM mpb1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by mpb1, posted 04-11-2007 6:11 PM dwise1 has replied

  
mpb1
Member (Idle past 6138 days)
Posts: 66
From: Texas
Joined: 03-24-2007


Message 120 of 169 (394485)
04-11-2007 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by dwise1
04-11-2007 5:35 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
You assume that Christians are morons, and that telling them to "keep" or "lose" their morals will somehow affect the way they choose to live following a loss of faith.
If atheists choose to abide by an independently-determined, yet societally-influenced "standard of morality," then that is their prerogative.
No one is going to convince them to abide by what is in fact a completely subjective standard of morality.
The Bible provides a fairly clear standard of morality, and our consciences convict us of what is obviously immoral.
Beyond that, people do what they truly WANT to do, factoring in their conscience, their beliefs, societally-influenced standards, and consequences.
NO ONE IS TELLING CHRISTIANS THAT IF THEY ABANDON THEIR FAITH, THEY SHOULD BECOME IMMORAL, AND ANY REFERENCE TO SUCH IS CLEARLY SAID TONGUE-IN-CHEEK.
If Rick Warren says something to the effect of, "If I weren't a Christian, I could do whatever I want," he is probably meaning this:
1.) If God created man in His image, He created us with value and purpose.
2.) If God did NOT create man, then we are really just evolutionary creatures, with NO value innately bestowed upon us by a Creator.
3.) If we are only evolutionary creatures, then there is NO clear and compelling reason why we should be held to any higher standard than that of the animals.
Do you think our advanced intellect demands that we be moral creatures?
Do you think that a recognition of so-called "moral reasoning" or an evolved conscience demands goodness?
THAT IS YOUR ASSUMPTION! NOTHING MORE.
Some, including myself, would argue that our consciences naturally tell us that homosexual intercourse is repulsive, against nature, and immoral.
However, an "enlightened atheist" - a schmuck who thinks he knows enough to conclude there is no God - would "reason" that such activity is NOT immoral, EVEN IF IT COULD BE PROVEN THAT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS HOMOSEXUALITY HAS BEEN NATURALLY CONSIDERED IMMORAL, EVEN IN SOCIETIES WHICH HAVE HAD NO CONTACT WITH THE BIBLE.
So what atheists REALLY WANT is the ability to decide what IS and WHAT IS NOT moral - FOR THEMSELVES!
Those who want to determine their own morality are among those who resort to atheism. They resent any external force or supreme being telling them what is or is not "right for them."
So for the last time, I believe your argument is a complete waste of time.
It accomplishes nothing.
Even if Christians began saying, "We recognize that a belief in God or the Bible is not required for humans to be naturally obligated to live moral lives," it would be utterly meaningless.
This is a statement of the obvious, since we all know humans have consciences. And it is also 100% ambiguous, since there are only a handful of activities which are ALWAYS considered immoral in all societies which have existed apart from Christianity. In fact, when you consider ritual human sacrifices and other activities, even that is a stretch...
Apart from the Bible - or some other standard - morality is SUBJECTIVE.
And when you meet the former-Christian-turned-atheist who tells you he became an EVIL person because he had no more sense of right and wrong after losing his faith (and having been told there was no moral standard apart from God), you will have met nothing more than a LIAR with a bad excuse.
-
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.
Edited by mpb1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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