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Author Topic:   A personal morality
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 166 of 196 (394102)
04-09-2007 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by New Cat's Eye
04-09-2007 3:28 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Catholic Scientist writes:
What about something of questionable morallity that the non-God related morality is not sufficient, where the God-related morality is neccessary. People would probably argue that these things are not immoral, but that is not what my conscience is saying.
"...that is not what my conscience is saying."
Same as - Answer: Yes.
-obviously, your feeling of yourself (your conscience) will keep you from doing this thing.
-you are incorrectly assuming that the non-God related morality is insufficient by including the thoughts of your conscience
The idea that if nobody is getting hurt then its okay does not sit well with me.
Neither does it sit well with me. Hence we both agree:
Answer: Yes.
-your personal feelings that this "does not sit well with you" will keep you from doing this thing.
If there are some behaviors that hurt others that I don't care about, the last chance for me to not do it is with God.
But, you just said:
quote:
that is not what my conscience is saying
and
quote:
The point is that my conscience has labeled some behaviors as immoral, a priori.
and
quote:
The idea that if nobody is getting hurt then its okay does not sit well with me
So you have nothing to worry about since, obviously, you do care about it.
Or are you under the belief that atheists do not have a conscience?
Catholic Scientist writes:
Stile writes:
(if you hurt people and don't care about it)
-Like Nator and I mentioned. You are probably not a very nice person.
Lets assume I'm not. So what?
This was all a mistake, I got confused:
-------------------------
But... that doesn't make sense.
If you're a nice person, then you will care if you hurt people. (Answer: Yes).
You can't not care when you hurt people, and still be a nice person. It doesn't work that way. That's the definition of being a nice person.
-------------------------
Replace with:
So what if you're not a nice person? It doesn't matter to me. But, like I said, I'll hope the local authorities get a hold of you and lock you up before I get in contact with your negative actions.
Edited by Stile, : Mis-understood the last part...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 3:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 4:33 PM Stile has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 196 (394107)
04-09-2007 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Stile
04-09-2007 4:16 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
-obviously, your feeling of yourself (your conscience) will keep you from doing this thing.
That's the point though, when my conscience alone is not enough. If I realized that some behavior was immoral but did it anyways.
You don't always have to listen to your conscience.
At that point you can still turn to God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Stile, posted 04-09-2007 4:16 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Stile, posted 04-09-2007 5:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 168 of 196 (394108)
04-09-2007 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by New Cat's Eye
04-09-2007 3:28 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Catholic Scientist writes:
The point is that my conscience has labeled some behaviors as immoral, a priori.
What if your conscience was having an "allergic reaction"?
In a sense, your conscience is like an immune system that protects you from behaviour that is potentially damaging. But what if the "protection" does more harm instead of less? Like your immune system closing your throat to keep out foreign particles, what if your conscience "chokes" you while trying to save you?
Long question short: Can you trust your conscience? If nobody is hurt, how do you know an action is "wrong"?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 3:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-10-2007 11:56 AM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 169 of 196 (394112)
04-09-2007 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by New Cat's Eye
04-09-2007 4:33 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Catholic Scientist writes:
That's the point though, when my conscience alone is not enough. If I realized that some behavior was immoral but did it anyways.
Fair enough. I think we've gotten as far as we can go in our conversation (Ringo has a good point however...).
My point is only that God is not needed for Morality. As in, God is not needed for all Morality.
If your point is that you personally need God in order to behave morally. Then I accept your point.
You don't always have to listen to your conscience.
At that point you can still turn to God.
No, you don't always have to listen to your conscience. My entire point, however, is that moral people do just that.
If your conscience only goes so far, and then God covers the extent... I would compare that with my conscience covering up to the extent that God covers for you, leaving us equal.
Perhaps that makes me arrogant. Perhaps that makes me moral.
In any case, thanks again CS for discussing things with me. If nothing else, it helps me write out and further understand my own thoughts and feelings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 4:33 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-10-2007 12:18 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 170 of 196 (394130)
04-09-2007 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by New Cat's Eye
04-09-2007 2:06 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
We're talking typing about things that my conscience says are immoral but I would enjoy doing anyways.
Why does your conscience say they're immoral?
If I didn't stop to think about God then I'd just go with it and have fun being bad.
Why are they bad just because it goes against your conscience? Isn't it possible that your "conscience" is just your internalized tendency to conform to the moral standards of your community? (I would say that the Milgram experiment definitely suggests that it is.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2007 2:06 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-10-2007 12:09 PM crashfrog has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 196 (394232)
04-10-2007 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by ringo
04-09-2007 4:37 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
What if your conscience was having an "allergic reaction"?
Its a possibility, but I don't know how I would be able to tell.
Long question short: Can you trust your conscience?
I think I can. How can anyone know?
If nobody is hurt, how do you know an action is "wrong"?
I guess you have to trust your conscience.
If I tell a lie and nobody knows its false and nobody gets hurt, I would still consider it immoral.
If I'm defending myself, and the other guy does get hurt, I wouldn't neccessarily consider it immoral.
Somebody getting hurt is not enough info to determine if it is moral or not. You have to go with your gut, I guess. Or society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by ringo, posted 04-09-2007 4:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by ringo, posted 04-10-2007 12:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 196 (394233)
04-10-2007 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by crashfrog
04-09-2007 7:34 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Why does your conscience say they're immoral?
I don't know.
Its more of a pass/fail response, it doesn't give an explanation.
Why are they bad just because it goes against your conscience?
That's how I tell if things are bad.
Isn't it possible that your "conscience" is just your internalized tendency to conform to the moral standards of your community? (I would say that the Milgram experiment definitely suggests that it is.)
Its more of a possibility, it probably is.

But let me get back to the atheist = more immorality thing. I think its best to give an example here.
The last time I got into a bar fight, it was both of our faults and we both wanted to fight. Now, before the fight, my fists clinched up, my heart sped up, I started feeling more like an animal. I started feeling farther away from god. When I feel like that, and think about god, I realize that I should stop and think about what I'm doing and how it isn't the right thing to do. Its that seperation from god that makes me feel like I'm sinning and makes me think that my action was wrong. I should try to avoid fighting. But, the last time, I did fight. I didn't think about god and I wanted to fight. Now, without god, I don't think that I was behaving immorally. He wanted to fight, I wanted to fight, let's get it on. But with god, I do think I was behaving immorally as I was seperating myself from him. My conscience told me that I was wrong and that I shouldn't have fought. But when I think about the situation as if I was an atheist, I don't see anything wrong with it. If I didn't believe in god, I would have gotten into more fights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by crashfrog, posted 04-09-2007 7:34 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by crashfrog, posted 04-11-2007 11:15 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 176 by nator, posted 04-11-2007 6:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 196 (394235)
04-10-2007 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Stile
04-09-2007 5:24 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Fair enough. I think we've gotten as far as we can go in our conversation
I doubt that
My point is only that God is not needed for Morality. As in, God is not needed for all Morality.
I'd change that to belief in God is not needed for Morality. But that is just my opinion, because without god, we are amoral beasts.
If your point is that you personally need God in order to behave morally. Then I accept your point.
My point wasn't that I need god to behave morally, it was that without my belief in god, I would behave more immorally.
No, you don't always have to listen to your conscience. My entire point, however, is that moral people do just that.
Yes, but what if their conscience is wrong and they are actually NOT behaving morally.... just like visa versa.
In any case, thanks again CS for discussing things with me.
No problem, I like you.
If nothing else, it helps me write out and further understand my own thoughts and feelings.
No, there's something else too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Stile, posted 04-09-2007 5:24 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by nator, posted 04-11-2007 6:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 174 of 196 (394239)
04-10-2007 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by New Cat's Eye
04-10-2007 11:56 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Catholic Scientist writes:
What if your conscience was having an "allergic reaction"?
Its a possibility, but I don't know how I would be able to tell.
Same way you recognize a literal allergic reaction: it does more harm than good.
For example:
If I'm defending myself, and the other guy does get hurt, I wouldn't neccessarily consider it immoral.
Your conscience might well be wrong. If you duck and he breaks his hand on the wall, that might be legitimate self-defense. If you punch back and break his nose, it might not be. If you step aside and he falls down the stairs, did you do enough to ensure his safety?
"He hit me first" has little importance for morality. It's the outcome that counts.
Any morality that isn't based on consequences is bound to fail.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-10-2007 11:56 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 175 of 196 (394423)
04-11-2007 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by New Cat's Eye
04-10-2007 12:09 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
But let me get back to the atheist = more immorality thing. I think its best to give an example here.
I find your example somewhat faulty, because you don't take into account how your view of morality and ethics would change when you became an atheist. You might very well find that you gained a new moral sense to replace the "god-sense" that previously held you in check.
I think people are moral by habit, and I doubt that atheism would cause a big change to your habits. If you're in the habit of only getting into fights some of the time, then I doubt you would find yourself in many more of them. (And fighting isn't necessarily morally wrong, anyway, although the way you do it seems a little reckless.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-10-2007 12:09 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 176 of 196 (394482)
04-11-2007 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by New Cat's Eye
04-10-2007 12:09 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
quote:
The last time I got into a bar fight...
LOL!!!
None of the unbelievers I know personally have ever been in a bar fight.
None of them have been involved in any sort of violence or threats of violence past the age of 14 or so. It just isn't something that grown ups in my world do. Maybe you have a problem, I don't know.
That "feeling" you talk about having, that voice that you hear that says "This is a bad idea, you shouldn't be doing this even though you want to right now"; everybody (who isn't a sociopath) has that voice inside of them. That is your conscience.
Some people attibute it to God, others don't.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-10-2007 12:09 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-13-2007 11:43 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 177 of 196 (394484)
04-11-2007 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by New Cat's Eye
04-10-2007 12:18 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
quote:
But that is just my opinion, because without god, we are amoral beasts.
When people have damage to the ventromedial prefrontal cortex of the brain, they become sociopaths.
This part of the brain, just like every other part of the brain, evolved, and it doesn't take a huge leap to understand how the ability to empathise with and feel remorse for hurting others would be adaptive in a social species.
Without God, then, we would still have a conscience and wouldn't be amoral beasts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-10-2007 12:18 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-13-2007 11:13 AM nator has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 196 (394821)
04-13-2007 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by nator
04-11-2007 6:10 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
When people have damage to the ventromedial prefrontal cortex of the brain, they become sociopaths.
This part of the brain, just like every other part of the brain, evolved, and it doesn't take a huge leap to understand how the ability to empathise with and feel remorse for hurting others would be adaptive in a social species.
A physical explanation for a phenomenon does not preclude god's involvement.
Without God, then, we would still have a conscience and wouldn't be amoral beasts.
A fine opinion, but I disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by nator, posted 04-11-2007 6:10 PM nator has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 196 (394826)
04-13-2007 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by nator
04-11-2007 6:00 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
None of the unbelievers I know personally have ever been in a bar fight.
That must be because being a believer makes you fight
It just isn't something that grown ups in my world do.
Well, they do in southern Illinois.
That "feeling" you talk about having, that voice that you hear that says "This is a bad idea, you shouldn't be doing this even though you want to right now"; everybody (who isn't a sociopath) has that voice inside of them. That is your conscience.
Some people attibute it to God, others don't.
I know what my conscience is. I don't attribute it to god alone.
When my conscience isn't getting the job done, I can turn to god to pick up the slack.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by nator, posted 04-11-2007 6:00 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by nator, posted 04-13-2007 9:51 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 180 of 196 (394892)
04-13-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by New Cat's Eye
04-13-2007 11:43 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
It [having bar fights] just isn't something that grown ups in my world do.
quote:
Well, they do in southern Illinois.
You are missing the irony here.
None of the unbelievers I know get into bar fights, nor have they engaged in violence since they were immature children.
You, a believer, an educated professional, and an adult, are claiming that morality comes from God, and you rely on God to tell you that getting into bar fights is wrong when your conscience fails you.
Bar fights. You actually need God to tell you that it isn't a good idea to get into bar fights? None of my unbeliever friends need God to help them in this regard. At all. Not even a little tiny bit.
quote:
When my conscience isn't getting the job done, I can turn to god to pick up the slack.
That's still your conscience.
Some people attribute it (or in your case, a part of it) to God (or their long-dead Grandmother, or someone else they wouldn't want to disappoint), but everybody has it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-13-2007 11:43 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2007 1:37 PM nator has replied

  
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